Civic Nationalism v. Ethnic Nationalism - The 4 Freedoms Library2024-03-28T17:53:03Zhttp://4freedoms.com/forum/topics/civic-nationalism-v-ethnic-nationalism?groupUrl=argumentation&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A196112&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThe arguments between ethnic…tag:4freedoms.com,2019-05-02:3766518:Comment:2030172019-05-02T11:03:05.058ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>The arguments between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism are hard to get to grips with, but I just thought of one example which helps to crystalise the fundamental issue. This is that the civic nationalism, by supporting civic values as opposed to the interests of his own tribe, has to constantly dilute his efforts into supporting events which will strengthen the opposition, a well defined tribal group supporting its own self-interest, i.e. an ethnic nationalist group. The concept…</p>
<p>The arguments between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism are hard to get to grips with, but I just thought of one example which helps to crystalise the fundamental issue. This is that the civic nationalism, by supporting civic values as opposed to the interests of his own tribe, has to constantly dilute his efforts into supporting events which will strengthen the opposition, a well defined tribal group supporting its own self-interest, i.e. an ethnic nationalist group. The concept isn't so easy to understand, however, so I will give two examples.</p>
<p><strong>A. Election Voting by Tribal Allegiance</strong></p>
<p>A perfect example is when elections took place for mayor of London. Then, all the non-Muslims who are civic nationalists, ignored Sadiq Khan’s tribal grouping and allegiance, and merely voted on his policies. However, amongst Muslims, surely 99 percent of them or higher voted for Sadiq Khan, whether they preferred his advertised agenda or not. That would be because they know that, ultimately, he will defend Muslim interests. This is clearly an unfair contests that in the end the civic nationalists must lose.</p>
<p>A coming example will now be the election of the next Conservative Prime Minister, when Theresa May resigns. All conservatives who repudiate tribalism will take a civic nationalist view of Sajid Javid and just evaluate him by his actions and spoken values (i.e. spoken for now, at this point in time). Sajid Javid has actually shown himself to be a staunch conservative and a stronger defender of conservative values than most of the rest of the party. Only a small number of tory MPs will view Sajid as a tribal threat to British values, so he has a good chance of getting elected. He will receive a vote from 100% of Muslim MPs and a good percentage of non-Muslim civic nationalism MPs. On the other hand, Boris Johnson, in this contest, will surely not receive a single Muslim MP’s vote. Thus belief and promotion of civic nationalism in this case clearly works against the civic nationalist candidate, and many of the actions the civic nationalists take, are effectively supporting their enemy.</p>
<p>The argument can now be made that Sajid is actually a ‘safe’ Muslim that is against extremism and seems to be pretty fair in his actions, in fact, is a pretty good non-tribal, civic nationalist himself. There are three problems with this position, just as there are 3 problems with the election of Sadiq Khan:</p>
<ol>
<li>Although Sajid currently displays a civic nationalist view rejecting the inbuilt tribalism and discrimination of Islam, we have no way of knowing what he really thinks. So, just like Erdogan with democracy (“democracy is a bus that you get off once you arrive at the stop you want” (the Islamic stop)), this may be just a position he takes tacticallly for now, to get ahead. In just the same way Sadiq Khan promoted himself as the ‘safe’, ‘non-extremist’ Muslim, then once in office assigned police to a twitter monitoring squad (to protect Islam from criticism) and told us all that Islamic terrorism is normal and something we should just get used to (instead of getting angry at Mulsims about it). </li>
<li>We are not able to know every action taken by the Muslim politician. There will be numerous meetings and discussions that take place which we simply cannot take the time to constantly monitor. There may also be private conversations deliberately kept secret, where one Muslim politician makes a pork barrel deal with another, that is difficult to find out about. When you elect a politician there has to be a certain level of trust; it is ridiculous to elect someone who has to be monitored 24x7 yet that is the position we get into with Muslim leaders.</li>
<li>Even if Sajid is genuine and stays genuine, he acts as a trail blazer for future Mulim leaders. Once we have all got aculturated to the idea of a Muslim ruling over us and running the country, it is then very easy for a more hardline version of Sajid to mouth the right words then get in to power. And of course, when Sajid is in power and then his successor, there are many ways, under the covers, that they can tilt the playing field to help future Muslims get elected.</li>
</ol>
<p><strong>B. Protection and Deprivation of Free Speech</strong></p>
<p>A similar numbers game scenario unfolds with free speech. The secular democrats work hard to ensure that everyone has a voice, even the Islamic groups that want to replace democracy with Sharia Law. They do this on the basis that if everyone has a voice, they will feel content to be heard, so society will not degenerate into violence as it does in other, non-democratic, nations. </p>
<p>Meanwhile however, the Leftists and Muslims will do everything they can to shut down and eliminate all those they disagree with. They do not see any general societal benefit to allowing dissenters to have a voice. They do not see the big picture and long term view, that silencing all dissenters leads to a fractious and eventually violent society. They just see the disadvantages in allowing those who oppose them in any way, to voice their concerns. So while conservatives work to protect free speech for everyone, leftists and 'progressives' will never lift a finger to protect the free speech of conservatives. But acutally, the situation is even worse, even more uneven than that. The Leftists will use every available means, both legal and illegal, to remove the speech platforms of the conservatives. Muslims particularly, are happy to use violence to silence all dissenters, and know that very soon, the mere threat of violence is sufficient to silence everyone else. This is clearly a battle that conservatives, operating according to the current rules, can never win.</p>
<p>I was inititally a staunch supporter of the civic nationalist view - in fact it is the entire reason for the creation of the 4 Freedoms website and many of the thousands of words and arguments that have been presented here. But now it is absolutely clear that unless the non-tribal democratic system can be toughened up considerably in Europe (and I don’t think it will), then an ethnic nationalist grouping for kuffar (non-Muslims) is the only way forward. </p>
<p>In the US, the situation will be even worse, with the tribalist grouping being forced to split 4 ways into Muslim, Black, Hispanic and White.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure that we all started off here desperately trying to reject tribalism and with it the necessary ‘racist’ component. But many of us have, over the years, been forced, reluctantly, to move over to the tribalist, ethnic nationalist side. There is a historical inevitability about this. Its like physics, or more precisely, it is actually Game Theory: its bigger than any one of us; its based on hard facts; and its unavoidable and inevitable.</p> The Privilege of Trevor Noah…tag:4freedoms.com,2018-08-20:3766518:Comment:1974872018-08-20T18:32:27.054ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p><span>The Privilege of Trevor Noah - (this issue is fundamentally about civic nationalism v. ethnic nationalism)</span></p>
<p><span><a href="https://www.bitchute.com/video/aphCDjMRaGOt/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.bitchute.com/video/aphCDjMRaGOt/</a></span></p>
<p><span>The Privilege of Trevor Noah - (this issue is fundamentally about civic nationalism v. ethnic nationalism)</span></p>
<p><span><a href="https://www.bitchute.com/video/aphCDjMRaGOt/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.bitchute.com/video/aphCDjMRaGOt/</a></span></p> tag:4freedoms.com,2018-06-12:3766518:Comment:1961122018-06-12T03:36:22.273ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rqKSMrvDL30?rel=0&wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rqKSMrvDL30?rel=0&wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> You need to listen to Spencer…tag:4freedoms.com,2018-03-05:3766518:Comment:1945152018-03-05T21:25:33.858ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>You need to listen to Spencer's 5 minute self-intro to get his point.</p>
<p>You need to listen to Spencer's 5 minute self-intro to get his point.</p> 'socialism is individualist..…tag:4freedoms.com,2018-03-05:3766518:Comment:1946092018-03-05T17:10:09.634ZKinanahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Kinana
<p>'<span>socialism is individualist...'</span></p>
<p><span>I don't understand that one for sure. I am reading 'The Road to Serfdom' by Hayek and he says, and to my mind proves, </span><span>just the opposite </span></p>
<p>'<span>socialism is individualist...'</span></p>
<p><span>I don't understand that one for sure. I am reading 'The Road to Serfdom' by Hayek and he says, and to my mind proves, </span><span>just the opposite </span></p> The following video is an int…tag:4freedoms.com,2018-03-05:3766518:Comment:1945082018-03-05T11:46:57.904ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>The following video is an interesting comment on the question of 'racist' attitudes. If any of those interviewed below had expressed the same views as a white person, they would have been doxed and their lives destroyed by now. But apparently, its ok in the US to express racist discrimination, as long as you are the right race. </p>
<p><iframe width="475" height="267" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RVd0kWmEAwM?rel=0&wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
</p>
<p>The following video is an interesting comment on the question of 'racist' attitudes. If any of those interviewed below had expressed the same views as a white person, they would have been doxed and their lives destroyed by now. But apparently, its ok in the US to express racist discrimination, as long as you are the right race. </p>
<p><iframe width="475" height="267" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RVd0kWmEAwM?rel=0&wmode=opaque" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
</p>