The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Power is not uni-directional, but forms a more complex structure than a straight line.  Femen make use of their assets and the tittilation of the media to draw attention to issues affecting women.  Roman feminists thanked Femen for drawing attention to sexism in Italy.  At first when I heard of Femen, I thought "they need to take their fight to islam, but they probaby won't".  The very next interview I heard with them, they said that that was near the top of their list, but that it is going to be very dangerous.

If you don't watch Russia Today, then you will have missed them.  And if they can get me jumping out of my seat and shouting "go, girls", then I think the rest of you will appreciate their efforts too.

I love this image on their home page: http://femen.org/

Here are images from many of their other confrontations. 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=femen&hl=en&client=opera&a...

Our history in the west could have been so different in the past 30 years if we'd had these kinds of feminists, instead of Germaine Greer and Maryam Namazie.  Our feminists were in fact the direct ideological descendants of the suffragettes, who were only interested in the vote for middle class (property-owning women) rather than democracy and universal suffrage (and a host of other issues affecting women). 

 

Tags: Articles, Collected, Femen, feminism, zwomen

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Replies to This Discussion

If you read Nomad as well, you'll see that mistreatement or unjust treatement is very spread within their society, and that affect males as well (boys).

Here about Mistreatement during one's childhood (by the way, Circumcision belong to it), just an article by an author who deserve to be known: http://www.alice-miller.com/interviews_en.php?page=5 excerpt

You use the term "black education" (schwarze Pädagogik). I understand it as an authoritarian education. Has permissive education similar effects?

The notion "Schwarze Pädagogik" has in my English editions the name "Poisonous Pedagogy". In my book "For Your Own Good" I describe how these methods for producing obedient, submissive children kill in them the natural capacity for empathy. The permissive education of 1968 was harmful in another way. But may be less destructive. It did mean often a total neglect of the children’s need for protection and communication. And it was also a kind of exploitation of children’s love for the adult’s ideology. This very often led to severe sexual abuse, concealed by Freud’s theory of infantile sexuality, and to a deep confusion of the sense of identity in the child. But I don’t think that the permissive education was as brutal as the authoritarian, which eventually led to millions of obedient servants willingly following Adolf Hitler.


and http://eqi.org/amiller.htm excerpt

The Drama of the Gifted Child, Alice Miller - */

Originally published in 1979.

Preface: (1986) We are encouraged not to take our own emotional pain seriously. People are admired for their insensitivity to their own pain. It is a virtue in the Abrahamic religious culture (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) She calls this a disastrous cultural trait. (yep)

Kindest regards.

Joe said:

 The lies they tell themselves to justify the 2nd class status of women.  Reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, when her mother relocates the family to Saudi Arabia, there is no trace of the women being treated like queens.  I guess the way to ascertain if these Saudi men really find the life of a Saudi woman so wonderful, is to find out if they areprepared to be dictated to in how they dress, what they can do, when they can leave the house, and whether or not they'd be happy for a kuffar's word to have twice the value of theirs in a court of law.

I'm confused.

Like I don't understand Indo, why you talk about pornography and open vaginas, when I didn't see any such thing, whether open or not, in any of the demo photos shown.

And I don't understand why you're taking a stance on this, when there's really awful stuff out there on the web, that we should all take a stance on.  By all means, lets try do something to protect women and protect women's dignity, but shouldn't we start at the far end of the scale, not the near end?

Well, I'm taking a rest now, dear Indo.

sorry for still adding:

 I wanted to point out (but psycholgist Willy Pasini did it in a recent book of his), that the spreading of nudity and notably Pornography,

has driven to the situation where consumers (or it and of Prostitution) had enough of it, and wanted something harder (as we see, it works like a drug),

therefore it started the business of Pedopornography, sexual exploitation of children (Prostitution),

and more, the use of torture and voilence, as well as rape, in these images and (forced) intercourses (sigh).

I wonder: what is next if we do not IMMEDIATELY stop with this nudity and pornography, and we do not get immediately back to a decent sense of Intimacy (instead of getting used to show a neverending increasing amount of "sexual or sexualized images" and getting used to show such images ... of ourselves ... off)?

Or better: becoming more decent would correspond to a step forward, not backward (while jilbabs aren't forward).

I go, bye bye again.

Indoeuropean ; just because one enjoys seeing images of nude consensual adults it does not mean that you will also want to see rape or pedophilia !

A business can not just "start up" dealing in pedophile images or child prostitution - they will find themselves on the recieving end of the law pretty quickly ! (exept for the muslim gangs of course !)

Indo,

I did start to read Nomad, but gave up (it was too much of a recyling of Infidel).

I've asked you a series of questions to try and elicit what it is you object to, and to ask whether you object to other analogous issues, and you have not answered my questions.  Without dialogue, we will just end up arguing that black is white.

I think that the rise of paedophile pornography is extremely worrying.  But I am not at all convinced that it has anything to do with the availability of adult pornography.  For all the thousand and thousands of professional psychologists there are I would really hope they would be spending considerable time and resources finding out what is behind the rise of such child abuse.
Indoeuropean said:

If you read Nomad as well, you'll see that mistreatement or unjust treatement is very spread within their society, and that affect males as well (boys).

My 2 cents for what it is worth

We where all born naked, and we all have a desire for sex, the same as any creature, if there was no desire for sex the this planet would be lifeless. It is organised religions that have turned a natural desire into sin so as subjugate people and keep them obedient. Porno this the product of organised religions, Nudity and sex are not a sin, the sin is the religious leaders using sex and nudity as a tool of suppression.

The Americas, Africa and large areas of South East Asia there was no problem with nudity until the abrahamic religions arrived with their "pure in spirit and mind, one must be pure of body poppycock."


Any way back on topic, the girls are out protesting, and it seems that they are also having good time.

This started confusing and just got worse.

Indo, as Joe says, please try respond to the points we make, otherwise we just can't get anywhere.  

I suspect that we may all agree, if we step out of the fog. I'm sure I agree with you, Indo, in aims, its your methods that I think don't help.  Certainly, we need to do more to protect the dignity and physical safety of women.  And I agree with this point from Indo's quote:

"the spreading of nudity and notably Pornography, has driven to the situation where consumers (of it and of Prostitution) had enough of it, and wanted something harder (as we see, it works like a drug)"

Actually, if anyone has any doubts about this process, you can see it enacted in the 'career' of a porn star. Some of them start with restrictions on performing certain acts, but due to simple economic pressure to add new material to the market and compete with other players, they eventually drop those restrictions.

The pendulum of tolerance has swung too far towards the media side, and too far from the protecting women side.  Its something I can agree with Muslims on, in principle.  

But we should start by tackling the far end of the scale not the near end!  If you start at the near end, you will get no support, or even credibility.

So lets take 2 examples from current pornography, and I invite readers to say where they stand on it (allow, restrict or prohibit) and defend their position.  I also pose additional video specific questions.  Imagine you are shown videos with the following.

(1) A man tells the woman to open her mouth, or pulls open her mouth, then spits into it.  

  • What purpose does this serve? Its not even sexual, never mind the usual pathetic excuse of  'for artistic purposes'. 

(2) A woman is violently raped by 1 or several men.  The rape episode itself lasts more than 10 seconds.  

  • Do you think some men watching this already like the idea but this makes them resolve to actually perform a rape?  
  • Do you think who previously were not inclined towards violence against women, may think it is more acceptable?
  • Will this increase the propensity towards and level of violence towards women in society?

OK, so now we've got 2 specific cases for people to get their teeth into.  Fire away!

At all (males here):

1. That a woman dressed like a whore/prostitute(*) is having a good time, good on her, THOUGH I dare to disagree, because female prostitution(*) is certainly not a deep fullfilling desire of a human being (notably, in this case, of a female, WHICH GREW UP in a sane context, where she got respected, both for her being a human being, a sentient being, and for her being a female/girl/woman),

2. that a woman dressed like a whore is claiming human Rights for women, this seems/is simply a sort of oxymoron;

3. that one (you males, in this case) DENY the root of phenomenas, this becomes THE CAUSE for such phenomenas (see, in this case: sexual Abuses) to (keep) happen(ing), such as the links that I provided about "the roots of Violence" by Alice Miller show how children's mistreatement and adult violence are strictly tied the one to the other,

they are not tied only to those who DO NOT approach the problem (Violence) scientifically/objectively, and of for those who live IN DENIAL (and here there would be a need of a personal Analysis and Autocritic, in order to understand why one denies or feels like having to deny TRUTH/REALITY/EVIDENCE).

(*) Prostitution is not an hobby, most of prostitutes got simply (sigh) abused during their childhood or younghood and eventually decided to sell herself according to the following (despirited) thought: "do you forcibly want me? Then (from now on) you'll (at least) pay for that".

Prostitution and the need of Pornography is a way to dignityless portraying a human being, be it a male, or a female, be it a kid, or an adult (denial about this subject says - me - that deniers have to watch inside themselves - their emotional world, and their personal past history - better, then try and talk about these very concrete and psychologically sensitive subjects again).

Now I'll go and try to find out those questions that I appearently ignored and to whom I appearently did not answer.

Light/Love/Beauty to you/us all.

I think that already those who invented such scenes and images, are somehow wretched inside themselves. Now, their perversion MUST have a root, which is probably their disrespect of their mothers. Why? This must be analyzed in every single case of their own childhood's experience, and anyway such subjects (people) and their admirers (those who like their movies) do have a problem, and this does affect society, and notably in a bad/negative/insane way. This is my general and specific answer to the concrete cases. Note: that violence can be the other way 'round as well, from females to males.

Alan Lake said:

This started confusing and just got worse.

Indo, as Joe says, please try respond to the points we make, otherwise we just can't get anywhere.  

I suspect that we may all agree, if we step out of the fog. ...

I can't find the other questions I appearently did not answer to, therefore I imagine these were about Nudity and Sexuality?

Yes, I think Nudity and ADULT Sexuality are normal, and I think that Ethics should be even normaler, which is UNFORTUNATELY not.

 

Between Nudity and dressing like a whore or a gigolò, there is a GREAT difference, not only in the appearence, but even in the meaning of such a look:

 

Innocence and Malice, these are two different things which can be applyed to a same subject (human body).

 

About Sexuality, there is the misleading idea that impulses must be acted, and therefore sexual abuses (those against children as well) are spreading.

 

There are people who abuse of others and say this is made out of Love: the fact here is, that they DO NOT KNOW what Love is, and they simply misunderstand things in oder to justify their wretched mind and behavious (this has roots in their CHILDHOOD ...).

 

Images of malicious Sex and Sexuality do arise people, and this often ends in sexual Abuses against children or against weaker members of our society: since the "actor/actress" who arouse the appetite is not really at disposal to the "hungry person", then this last one will find a prey to act his/her brand new appetite with.


And these are usually the victime of rape and/or sexual Abuses, which hardly find justice within human race and societies, since a violated being hardly find the power and the strenght to go through trials and worst. Not to mention that often criminals are set free or almost free, and the victim has to go through ANOTHER humiliation and blessure, which is certainly not good (helpless) for the victim, it is actually bad/worst.

 

Tell me about other questions please, in case I forgot them.

 

Light/Love/Beauty to all.

Hi Indo, 

thanks for your replies, and sorry for harassing you :-))

So, do you and I agree that example video (1) above should be censored?  The grounds would be that:

(a) it serves no political purpose or has any artistic value

(b) it involves the abuse of an actual person (the porn actress)

(c) it promotes and encourages the performance of an abusive act on another human being, which is a bad practice for society to encourage.  If we can decide that smoking is bad for society, surely we can decide that spitting in a woman's mouth is bad for society.

Please note that clause (a) is what protects us political activists from being censored by these kinds of measures.  Spitting in a woman's mouth has no political message at all, therefore does not need to receive protection as free speech.  But here on 4F, even if our messages do 'offend' some people, those messages should receive protection under free speech, because they have a political purpose.

Western society has gone thru an 'experiment' in the effective unwinding of all censorship laws (with the internet especially). Well, we've now seen some of the effects of that, and its time for us all to examine where we've ended up, and start thinking about it this topic a bit more deeply.

Have a lovely day today, Indo.

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=ni+putes+ni+soumises&rl... Ni putes ni soumises, Neither prostituted nor submitted

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Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

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These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
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An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

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