From The Heart Of A Muslim - by Tawfik Hamid - The 4 Freedoms Library2024-03-28T19:14:03Zhttp://4freedoms.com/forum/topics/from-the-heart-of-a-muslim-by-tawfik-hamid?groupUrl=reformers&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A111363&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI've just read the Canada Pos…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-07:3766518:Comment:1113632012-09-07T05:33:21.271ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>I've just read the Canada Post article posted by Paul. There's definitely a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by being too critical of someone who, however deluded, has put his life on the line, and even Michael Coren seems to approve of him.</p>
<p>I think a better model is to see the battlefield as arrayed with multiple players all operating with different strategies at different levels (after all, that's how Islam operates).</p>
<p>Under that model, is he is a useful…</p>
<p>I've just read the Canada Post article posted by Paul. There's definitely a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by being too critical of someone who, however deluded, has put his life on the line, and even Michael Coren seems to approve of him.</p>
<p>I think a better model is to see the battlefield as arrayed with multiple players all operating with different strategies at different levels (after all, that's how Islam operates).</p>
<p>Under that model, is he is a useful player now? </p>
<p>There is a completely different answer to this problem that I espouse though. I advocate a rigorous application of secular principles to everyone in our society, with a refusal to get sucked into theological discussions. The the question of the 'true Islam' or a reformed Islam, is just not our business. Muslims can talk about it if they like, but we don't care. We just re-draft and strictly enforce our law on everyone.</p>
<p>Two years ago, I didn't think it was possible to do this in a secular way, but now I am sure it is, because we've managed to itemise many of the gaps, here:<br/><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/admin/forum/topics/the-12point-plan-for-equal">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/admin/forum/topics/the-12point-plan-for-equal</a></p> Well thanks go out to our 4F…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-07:3766518:Comment:1111712012-09-07T05:14:24.866ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>Well thanks go out to our 4F Researcher for doing the groundwork! For our readers' sake, I summarise the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>In the first quote, Tawfik Hamid substitutes 'peace' for 'Islam', thus changing an exhortation or order to follow Islam, into one to follow peace. If he did want to substitute a general noun for a specific noun, the proper one would have been 'submission', as any true Islamic scholar would tell you.<br></br>In other words, <em>he tried to trick us into believing that…</em></li>
</ol>
<p>Well thanks go out to our 4F Researcher for doing the groundwork! For our readers' sake, I summarise the following:</p>
<ol>
<li>In the first quote, Tawfik Hamid substitutes 'peace' for 'Islam', thus changing an exhortation or order to follow Islam, into one to follow peace. If he did want to substitute a general noun for a specific noun, the proper one would have been 'submission', as any true Islamic scholar would tell you.<br/>In other words, <em>he tried to trick us into believing that Mohammed exhorts his believers into following the path of peace</em>, whereas in reality, he exhorts his believers into following the path of Islam or Submission - with all that that entails in Sharia Law, etc.</li>
<li>In the second quote, Tawfik Hamid substitutes 'nation' for 'people' or 'group', where the latter two terms are taken to be subdivisions of people within the Umma, i.e. Muslims. <br/>So TK alters the exhortation to not insult other Muslims, into an exhortation to not insult other nations, thereby <em>trying to fool us into believing that non-Muslims are included in the protection</em>. In fact, non-Muslims are excluded from this protection because they are wrongdoers ("<span>whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers").</span></li>
</ol>
<p>There are two issues here: (a) what is his intention? (b) what is his effect?</p>
<p>(a) None of us know what is going on his mind, so we are all entitled to our own opinion. Personally, I think he is well intentioned, but people's capacity for self-delusion is enormous. He probably re-writes the Quran thinking that little Tawfik can steer this oil tanker of Islam down a gentler route. I don't think he has some cunning master plan to make Islam dominate. But that is just conjecture. If anyone has a mind reading machine, I'd be grateful to borrow it.</p>
<p>(b) His effect can be discussed objectively. As Paul and I said before, his effect is <em>at best</em>, confusing and <em>at worst</em>, a time wasting, energy sapping, force diverting manoeuvre, with dangerous strategic implications.<br/>Politically, its important for all of us to be seen to be trying to reach out and make a compromise, even with countries like North Korea. Ahh, I need to think about this some more.</p>
<p>Finally, when this discussion is finished, I will write to the Hudson Institute, and point out those verses and issues to them. The Hudson Institute are well intentioned, and they are struggling in a very difficult and hostile arena, with the US media as they are. I'm sure we can all see the predicament they face.</p> Yo Paul
If you opened the li…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-07:3766518:Comment:1111702012-09-07T04:47:08.567Zshivahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/shiva
<p>Yo Paul</p>
<p> If you opened the link I gave, you will see he gives a lot of verses from the koran, but the verses have been altered and are very misleading.</p>
<p>Here are a few examples.</p>
<p>Koran 2:208 according to Islamforpeace/Tawfik Hamid: </p>
<p><i> </i>O ye who believe! <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Enter into peace whole-heartedly</strong></span>; and follow not the footsteps of Satan (the evil one); for he is to you an avowed enemy). </p>
<p>Koran 2:208…</p>
<p>Yo Paul</p>
<p> If you opened the link I gave, you will see he gives a lot of verses from the koran, but the verses have been altered and are very misleading.</p>
<p>Here are a few examples.</p>
<p>Koran 2:208 according to Islamforpeace/Tawfik Hamid: </p>
<p><i> </i>O ye who believe! <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Enter into peace whole-heartedly</strong></span>; and follow not the footsteps of Satan (the evil one); for he is to you an avowed enemy). </p>
<p>Koran 2:208 according to </p>
<div id="verse_215_language_6" class="ayah language_6 text"><div><strong>Sahih International</strong></div>
<span id="verse_215_language_6_content">O you who have believed, <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">enter into Islam completely [and perfectly]</span></strong> and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_6 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_215_language_7" class="ayah language_7 text"><div><strong>Muhsin Khan</strong></div>
<span id="verse_215_language_7_content">O you who believe! <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Enter perfectly in Islam (by obeying all the rules and regulations of the Islamic religion)</strong></span> and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Verily! He is to you a plain enemy.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_7 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_215_language_8" class="ayah language_8 text"><div><strong>Pickthall</strong></div>
<span id="verse_215_language_8_content">O ye who believe! <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Come, all of you, into submission (unto Him)</span></strong>; and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_8 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_215_language_9" class="ayah language_9 text"><div><strong>Yusuf Ali</strong></div>
<span id="verse_215_language_9_content">O ye who believe! <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Enter into Islam whole-heartedly</strong></span>; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_9 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_215_language_10" class="ayah language_10 text"><div><strong>Shakir</strong></div>
<span id="verse_215_language_10_content">O you <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>who believe! enter into submission</strong></span> one and all and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><span> </span></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><span>Then this sneaky little trick</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><span> </span></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text">Koran 49:11 according to Islamforpeace/Tawfik Hamid: </div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><em>O ye who believe! Let not any nation laugh at another nation: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): </em></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><br/>And we trust that we should unite with other fellow human beings, irrespective of their faith, to do good deeds for humanity - which pleases God - such as finding a cure for cancer and other diseases, ending poverty, and relieving suffering throughout the world.</div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text">Notice that Islamforpeace/Tawfik Hamid do not quote the whole verse</div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"></div>
<div class="ayah language_10 text"><div id="verse_4623_language_6" class="ayah language_6 text"><div><strong>Sahih International</strong></div>
<span id="verse_4623_language_6_content">O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_6 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_4623_language_7" class="ayah language_7 text"><div><strong>Muhsin Khan</strong></div>
<span id="verse_4623_language_7_content">O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former; nor let (some) women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former, nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. How bad is it, to insult one's brother after having Faith [i.e. to call your Muslim brother (a faithful believer) as: "O sinner", or "O wicked", etc.]. And whosoever does not repent, then such are indeed Zalimun (wrong-doers, etc.).</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_7 text"><span> </span></div>
<div id="verse_4623_language_9" class="ayah language_9 text"><div><strong>Yusuf Ali</strong></div>
<span id="verse_4623_language_9_content">O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former): Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.</span></div>
<div class="ayah language_9 text"><span> </span></div>
<div class="ayah language_9 text"><span>Now here is the verse in context <a href="http://quran.com/49/8-14" target="_blank">http://quran.com/49/8-14</a></span></div>
<div class="ayah language_9 text"><span> </span></div>
<div class="ayah language_9 text"></div>
</div> http://www.canada.com/nationa…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-06:3766518:Comment:1112532012-09-06T21:55:51.474Zpaul collingshttp://4freedoms.com/profile/paulcollings
<p><a href="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=eb74b136-3729-42a1-821b-77366f7af920">http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=e...</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=eb74b136-3729-42a1-821b-77366f7af920">http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=e...</a></p> Sorry Paul, but I can not sha…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-06:3766518:Comment:1112512012-09-06T15:26:49.655Zshivahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/shiva
<p>Sorry Paul, but I can not share your opinion about him.</p>
<p>I take what he says about being a part of a terrorist group with a large dollop of salt, especially after looking at his website</p>
<p><a href="http://islamforpeace.org/approach.html" target="_blank">http://islamforpeace.org/approach.html</a></p>
<p>Most of the verses are not completely correct, or they have been tampered with. But I have one rule, never, ever trust anybody who quotes the below, no matter who they…</p>
<p>Sorry Paul, but I can not share your opinion about him.</p>
<p>I take what he says about being a part of a terrorist group with a large dollop of salt, especially after looking at his website</p>
<p><a href="http://islamforpeace.org/approach.html" target="_blank">http://islamforpeace.org/approach.html</a></p>
<p>Most of the verses are not completely correct, or they have been tampered with. But I have one rule, never, ever trust anybody who quotes the below, no matter who they are. </p>
<p>5:32 <em>On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all humans in the world: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all of them whole people.</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p> Your right Alan,
no one want…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-06:3766518:Comment:1114472012-09-06T14:02:03.933Zpaul collingshttp://4freedoms.com/profile/paulcollings
<p></p>
<p>Your right Alan,</p>
<p>no one wants to disrespect the work that anyone does in resisting islam in what ever way. Not least the great minds of the Hudson insitute. But, as you rightly point out, it can lead to more problems. Tawfik is trying the, i'm a moderate muslim routine, come and join me.</p>
<p>I really have trouble now a days understanding how us mere mortals are going to 'reform' the word of Allah when he is all seeing, all knowning, and everthing we all do and say is…</p>
<p></p>
<p>Your right Alan,</p>
<p>no one wants to disrespect the work that anyone does in resisting islam in what ever way. Not least the great minds of the Hudson insitute. But, as you rightly point out, it can lead to more problems. Tawfik is trying the, i'm a moderate muslim routine, come and join me.</p>
<p>I really have trouble now a days understanding how us mere mortals are going to 'reform' the word of Allah when he is all seeing, all knowning, and everthing we all do and say is pre-ordained by him. Anyone who trys to change the word of the Qur'an can't be a muslim. Theres plenty of minority muslim groups who have tried that, and they and their mosques end up dead and burned as surely as any church.</p>
<p>We are supposed to live in a well educated country. Look at all the people who got A levels over the past 15 yrs. We is all very clever 'innit'. So you'd think someone would have noticed that Islam is a vicious cult. Thats the truth, and its hard to dress it up as anything else. Tawfik telling people, they've just been mis-interpreting islam for 1400 yrs isn't going to get much of a following in the short term. maybe over the course of a couple centries that idea may catch on. Lets hope so ah!! </p> Thanks Paul, you expressed wh…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-06:3766518:Comment:1112422012-09-06T11:00:11.902ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>Thanks Paul, you expressed what I didn't have time to say, something like "I don't want to put him down, its a good effort, but really, where is it going?"</p>
<p>Also, I'm a big fan of the Hudson Institute, so I don't want to dis their efforts too much.</p>
<p>Perhaps, in a way, what people like Tawfik Hamid do is give us another set of problems, as if we haven't got enough already!</p>
<p>Thanks Paul, you expressed what I didn't have time to say, something like "I don't want to put him down, its a good effort, but really, where is it going?"</p>
<p>Also, I'm a big fan of the Hudson Institute, so I don't want to dis their efforts too much.</p>
<p>Perhaps, in a way, what people like Tawfik Hamid do is give us another set of problems, as if we haven't got enough already!</p> Its great that men such as T…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-06:3766518:Comment:1114422012-09-06T09:37:52.307Zpaul collingshttp://4freedoms.com/profile/paulcollings
<p></p>
<p>Its great that men such as Tawfik, who was i believe part of a terrorist group in his youth, speak out against radical islam. It gives impressionable youngsters a different angle to the religion. The only trouble being of course, if they then decide to read the qur'an properly, or take instruction from an Imam, then Tawfik's version won't be what they hear.</p>
<p>I don't want to put the man down, but it seems to me he wants his cake. The Qur'an and the Hadiths are what they are.…</p>
<p></p>
<p>Its great that men such as Tawfik, who was i believe part of a terrorist group in his youth, speak out against radical islam. It gives impressionable youngsters a different angle to the religion. The only trouble being of course, if they then decide to read the qur'an properly, or take instruction from an Imam, then Tawfik's version won't be what they hear.</p>
<p>I don't want to put the man down, but it seems to me he wants his cake. The Qur'an and the Hadiths are what they are. Theres many copys and they all agree on the main points about subduing the non believer, killing jews, Mohhamad being the perfect man. Its all there and has been argued over for centries, disagrements do exist. The disagrements are amongst the muslims themselves, and of no concern to us infidels. The muslim won't hear a word of critisim from someone who hasn't reverted back to islam. And once your a muslim, your can't critisize. </p>
<p>My point is, the Qur'an is there, and unless people such as Tawfik are able to rewite it. Then when ever there's any confusion over anything, Imams will refer back to the text of the Qur'an and interpretations by all the scholars and come up with the same answers as, hamas, the taliban, Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabab, and :Ali-F******* Baba. Kill the jews, humiliate everyone else, take over the world, smash everything that isn't islamic, keep women as second class citizens, take over the world again, kill all the dogs, and then just keep on doing that untill the end of times, job done!!!!</p>
<p>I used to think we could talk and listern to the sense from people such as Tawfik Hamid, but he can't rewite the Qur'an.</p>
<p>You'd have to destroy every book and reference to the qur'an, hadiths. It doesn't matter that most people can't read Arabic. all the scholars that have translated the passages have all pretty much agreed on its content. And even if you could get people to re-interprete the entire Qur'an to mean something else, you'll always get others that will come along and say 'thats a lie, thats not what it says'. </p>
<p>There's about 1.2 billion muslims. I'm sure most of them don't know a thing about their supposed religion, except they must follow certain rules, and actions. ie: leap around demanding death to all non believers and burning american flags when islam has been deemed to have been insulted.</p>
<p>For most muslims i'm sure they go through the actions of praying and looking the part in public, just as a means of getting through life. We need to help as many muslims as possible leave islam, and show them they will be safe. That means taking some tough decisions, and doing away with Mulit-culturism, and political correctness.</p>
<p>People in Britian should obey British law. No special consessions made on religious grounds, no Halal forced into the public domain, no bloody outreach to all those muslim groups. No face covering in public, no to everything we concede to islam at present. NO! to all the refugees from our allied countries, and illegals should be removed back to their last country of entry. No to foriegn Imams spreading their hate in mosques, and i would say monitor all mosques for the next twenty years to insure they are not preaching hate.</p>
<p>Is any of that ever going to happen! of cause it won't. Is tawfik Hamid going to convince millions of Muslims to believe his version of Islam, of cause he's not. Its the first duty of a govenment to protect the people. That is not happening!. That is because they are weak, our laws are weak!! and when they do decide to inact laws, the police use the laws against the very people who are argueing in favour of tolerence, and equality, in the same way islamic law will not tally up with Tawfik's version. </p>
<p>If you stand with a sign that proclaims your belief, that there should be no forced marriages, and No Female genital mutilation. If you want equal rights for women. Then you stand more chance of being arrested than anyone who waves a placard demanding sharia law for the UK, or death to our service men and women, or who burns poppys on rememberence day. </p>
<p>If you'd stood and said that was going to happen in the future 50 yrs ago!!! well we all know the story of Enoch Powell.</p>
<p>Yes its great to have men like Tawfik Hamid, but how many people is he going to get to follow his version of islam, Honestly! </p> Good point.tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-05:3766518:Comment:1111572012-09-05T09:49:26.444ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>Good point.</p>
<p>Good point.</p> No Alan, I do not think he is…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-09-05:3766518:Comment:1111542012-09-05T07:32:05.501Zshivahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/shiva
<p>No Alan, I do not think he is good enough</p>
<p>As a Quranist, he rejects the Hadithes so there is not much point to discuss Appendix B & C </p>
<p>It is good reading but falls apart when Hamid writes of becoming a "Qur'anist."</p>
<p>Up until this point, Hamid provides no fewer than 14 passages from the Qur'an as part of explaining how the "extremists" use the Qur'an to justify their actions.</p>
<p> Then he goes on to write </p>
<p><span> <em>On one occasion a fellow medical student…</em></span></p>
<p>No Alan, I do not think he is good enough</p>
<p>As a Quranist, he rejects the Hadithes so there is not much point to discuss Appendix B & C </p>
<p>It is good reading but falls apart when Hamid writes of becoming a "Qur'anist."</p>
<p>Up until this point, Hamid provides no fewer than 14 passages from the Qur'an as part of explaining how the "extremists" use the Qur'an to justify their actions.</p>
<p> Then he goes on to write </p>
<p><span> <em>On one occasion a fellow medical student named Abdul Latif Haseeb started a conversation with me about religion. We discussed whether it was right to kill apostates or stone women to death, as well as whether Mohammed could be considered a pedophile because he married the seven-year-old Aisha (See Appendix C.) We weighed the merits of declaring war on non-Muslims to spread Islam and agreed that it should be rejected because it is condoned only by supplemental Salafi books rather than by the Quran itself.</em></span></p>
<p>Oh Dear, He starts out being very truthful, but he then takes a word out of the ether, a word that is meant to take the sting out of his indictment of Islam, and to pretend that there is a particular variant that somehow is the only one we need to worry about, when Tawfik Hamid has just insisted on the very opposite.</p>
<p> He blames Salafi, not Islam.</p>