Is Christianity more Murderous than Islam? - The 4 Freedoms Library2024-03-29T11:04:02Zhttp://4freedoms.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&x=1&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&feed=yes&xn_auth=no"So, I suggest that John take…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1038892012-06-11T11:44:06.229ZMarkhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Mark
<p><strong>"So, I suggest that John takes that quote and pads it out with more words, in order to remove any possible ambiguity or alternative interpretation from it. If John can do that and combine it with a mind numbing re-iteration step by step of his <em>total</em> argument, it will also help greatly (and also remove the scope for any equivocation)".</strong><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Netcon said:…</cite></p>
<p><strong>"So, I suggest that John takes that quote and pads it out with more words, in order to remove any possible ambiguity or alternative interpretation from it. If John can do that and combine it with a mind numbing re-iteration step by step of his <em>total</em> argument, it will also help greatly (and also remove the scope for any equivocation)".</strong><br/> <br/> <cite>Netcon said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=activity&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103945"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><strong>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</strong></p>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong>Relevant Post: </strong> <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" class="Apple-converted-space"><strong>Clause Breached:</strong> </span> <strong id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><font id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: inherit; font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" face="Helvetica" size="2">4.7.3 Strange Use of Language<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></font></strong></strong><div id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Warning Level: RED</b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"> </b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;">Explanation<br/></strong>There are many examples of this Strange Use of Language, but we just explain the one for brevity.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In this post, Alan Lake explains the 2 differing interpretations of the English statements given:<br/><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103767&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The 1st interpretation, assigned to Mark is a strange one. The 2nd interpretation, assigned to John, is the statistically 'normal' one.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark does not contest this interpretation in his reply below. He continues on happily from it, so he must accept it. </div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Even if Mark were to come back and say <em>now</em> that he didn't accept it, that would be violation 4.7.4 - Strange Mental Models, since we don't expect people to let that kind of allegation pass by them, while they blissfully continue on to another point.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Normally, for these kinds of possible misunderstandings, we issue a Yellow warning. However, in Mark's case, there are many instances of this strange use of language, and it has caused a great deal of frustration and time wasting amongst our members, as we struggle to help someone, in our foolish kindness. Therefore, this warning has been raised to Red level.</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p><cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886#3766518Comment103600"><div><p><strong>John,</strong></p>
<p><strong>"I am just making this one post to try to save a lot of unnecessary argument here. I will try expand how I think the 2 different speakers are understanding these statements. I do not want to join this discussion, I am just trying to avoid the two speakers talking at cross purposes".</strong></p>
<p><strong> Alan Lake</strong></p>
<p>I'll take this opportunity to comment on what Alan has had to say. </p>
<p>Once more....</p>
<p><span>I also find it interesting that many of America's Christian's were left out of this poll, as an example we have the Southern Baptist congregation. There are </span><em>many</em><span> types of Southern Baptist congregations in America, not just down South! There are also the many "Evangelicals" among many other sects of Christianity, ask any of these sometime if they believe the Bible to be the unerring word of God, whether actual or inspired and listen to what they tell you.</span></p>
<p><strong>Christian Bible (New International Version)</strong></p>
<p><strong>2 Peter 1:20-21</strong></p>
<p><strong><span id="en-NIV-30500" class="text 2Pet-1-20"><sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Above all, you must understand that <em>no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.</em></span><em> </em><span id="en-NIV-30501" class="text 2Pet-1-21"><sup class="versenum">21 </sup><em>For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>However one may choose to interpret "actual " or "inspired".......</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>2 Timothy 3:16-17</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><sup class="versenum">16 </sup><span style="text-decoration: underline;">All Scripture is</span></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> <span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16">God-breathed</span></span><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,</span> </span><span id="en-NIV-29871" class="text 2Tim-3-17"><sup class="versenum">17 </sup>so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.</span></em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong>The Bible teaches that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">all scripture is "God breathed."</span> I've never met a Christian willing to concede that their "God breathed" scripture was not the unerring word of their perfect and unerring God, and that it needed "updating". </strong></p>
<p><strong>Brother Mark:)</strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> "So, I suggest that John tak…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1037902012-06-11T11:42:53.146ZMarkhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Mark
<p></p>
<p><strong>"So, I suggest that John takes that quote and pads it out with more words, in order to remove any possible ambiguity or alternative interpretation from it. If John can do that and combine it with a mind numbing re-iteration step by step of his <em>total</em> argument, it will also help greatly (and also remove the scope for any equivocation)".</strong></p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Netcon said:…</cite></p>
<p></p>
<p><strong>"So, I suggest that John takes that quote and pads it out with more words, in order to remove any possible ambiguity or alternative interpretation from it. If John can do that and combine it with a mind numbing re-iteration step by step of his <em>total</em> argument, it will also help greatly (and also remove the scope for any equivocation)".</strong></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Netcon said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=activity&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103945"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><strong>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</strong></p>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong>Relevant Post: </strong> <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" class="Apple-converted-space"><strong>Clause Breached:</strong> </span> <strong id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><font id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: inherit; font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" face="Helvetica" size="2">4.7.3 Strange Use of Language<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></font></strong></strong><div id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Warning Level: RED</b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"> </b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;">Explanation<br/></strong>There are many examples of this Strange Use of Language, but we just explain the one for brevity.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In this post, Alan Lake explains the 2 differing interpretations of the English statements given:<br/><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103767&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The 1st interpretation, assigned to Mark is a strange one. The 2nd interpretation, assigned to John, is the statistically 'normal' one.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark does not contest this interpretation in his reply below. He continues on happily from it, so he must accept it. </div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Even if Mark were to come back and say <em>now</em> that he didn't accept it, that would be violation 4.7.4 - Strange Mental Models, since we don't expect people to let that kind of allegation pass by them, while they blissfully continue on to another point.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Normally, for these kinds of possible misunderstandings, we issue a Yellow warning. However, in Mark's case, there are many instances of this strange use of language, and it has caused a great deal of frustration and time wasting amongst our members, as we struggle to help someone, in our foolish kindness. Therefore, this warning has been raised to Red level.</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p><cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886#3766518Comment103600"><div><p><strong>John,</strong></p>
<p><strong>"I am just making this one post to try to save a lot of unnecessary argument here. I will try expand how I think the 2 different speakers are understanding these statements. I do not want to join this discussion, I am just trying to avoid the two speakers talking at cross purposes".</strong></p>
<p><strong> Alan Lake</strong></p>
<p>I'll take this opportunity to comment on what Alan has had to say. </p>
<p>Once more....</p>
<p><span>I also find it interesting that many of America's Christian's were left out of this poll, as an example we have the Southern Baptist congregation. There are </span><em>many</em><span> types of Southern Baptist congregations in America, not just down South! There are also the many "Evangelicals" among many other sects of Christianity, ask any of these sometime if they believe the Bible to be the unerring word of God, whether actual or inspired and listen to what they tell you.</span></p>
<p><strong>Christian Bible (New International Version)</strong></p>
<p><strong>2 Peter 1:20-21</strong></p>
<p><strong><span id="en-NIV-30500" class="text 2Pet-1-20"><sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Above all, you must understand that <em>no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.</em></span><em> </em><span id="en-NIV-30501" class="text 2Pet-1-21"><sup class="versenum">21 </sup><em>For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>However one may choose to interpret "actual " or "inspired".......</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>2 Timothy 3:16-17</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><sup class="versenum">16 </sup><span style="text-decoration: underline;">All Scripture is</span></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> <span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16">God-breathed</span></span><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,</span> </span><span id="en-NIV-29871" class="text 2Tim-3-17"><sup class="versenum">17 </sup>so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.</span></em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong>The Bible teaches that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">all scripture is "God breathed."</span> I've never met a Christian willing to concede that their "God breathed" scripture was not the unerring word of their perfect and unerring God, and that it needed "updating". </strong></p>
<p><strong>Brother Mark:)</strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Hi everybody!
Clauses Brea…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1040352012-06-11T11:39:12.447ZMarkhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Mark
<p></p>
<p><b>Hi everybody!</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><b>Clauses Breached:</b></p>
<p><b>4.2.3 Unsubstantiated Allegations: YELLOW warning</b></p>
<p><b>4.6.4 Shoddy Evidence and Research (Time Wasting): RED warning</b></p>
<p> </p>
<p><b>Explanation:</b><br></br>At the very beginning of this discussion, Mark gave this link as proof that Christianity is more murderous than Islam:…</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>
<p><b>Hi everybody!</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><b>Clauses Breached:</b></p>
<p><b>4.2.3 Unsubstantiated Allegations: YELLOW warning</b></p>
<p><b>4.6.4 Shoddy Evidence and Research (Time Wasting): RED warning</b></p>
<p> </p>
<p><b>Explanation:</b><br/>At the very beginning of this discussion, Mark gave this link as proof that Christianity is more murderous than Islam:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html" target="_blank">http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html</a><br/><br/>Its a long list of deaths that have been directly attributed to christianity. To save time, Admin has attempted to verify the veracity and applicability of only a random selection of these alleged 'facts'.<br/><br/><b>1. Alleged 'fact': Germany</b></p>
<p><i>*1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]</i><b><br/></b><br/><b>Actual Historical Evidence:</b></p>
<p><i>January<br/></i><i>– The Jewish population of Basal Switzerland is rounded up and incinerated, believed by the residents to be the cause of the ongoing Black death febuary 1 – Roughly 2,000 jews are burned to death in Strasburg. March 21 – The bulk of the 900 strong Jewish community of Eurfert Germany is murdered by the rest of the population which accuses the minority to be the underlying cause of the Black Death</i></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Violation numero ono...</p>
<p><b> "</b><b>use of this spurious source caused Admin to waste many hours checking out facts"...</b></p>
<p>I can see that the admn. is <i>hard</i> at work trying to find reasons to get me put off this forum.</p>
<p><b>"I'm not going to go through every town, because it was pretty much the same reason. in some cases it may have been opportunism"</b></p>
<p>Yes, it was "opportunism" alright...</p>
<p>Have any of you ever wondered why the Christians would want to blame the Jews for the black plague in the first place? Anti semitism? NOOOOO, why would anyone say such a thing? I can still remember when I was a little boy, and my Christian friends told me that the Jews had murdered their "savior".</p>
<p>"Violation"numero dos...</p>
<p><i>"That statement is a long way from your claim that the blood spilt by islam is a drop in the bucket of the blood spilt by christianity. You don't seem to be prepared to admit that you were wrong, yet you don't provide any of the evidence I asked you to provide. <b>"What I challenge you to do is to provide evidence that in the 300 years following the death of Jesus, that christians exhibited the same rapacious, murderous actions as muslims did in the 300 years following his death"</b></i></p>
<p><i>I answered this by responding to the fact that for the first 300 years Christianity</i><i> did not have the state power to behave the same way as did Islam which had its state power much sooner. You seemed to have missed that somehow...</i></p>
<p><b>"This is not relevant to the question of whether Christians or Muslims are more murderous. It is Fogging".</b></p>
<p>How nice of you to pick out one statement among many regarding this issue and consider it "fogging."</p>
<p><i> </i></p>
<p><b><i>Brother Mark:)</i></b></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Netcon said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=activity&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103938"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><font style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);" face="Calibri" size="3"><font color="#0000FF"><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</u></b></font></font></p>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a><br/></b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); text-align: left;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Clauses Breached:</b></font> <strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica;"><strong style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">4.2.3 Unsubstantiated Allegations &</strong> 4.6.4 Shoddy Evidence and Research (Time Wasting)<br/></strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); text-align: left;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica;">Warning Level: 4.2.3 = YELLOW; 4.6.4 = RED<br/></strong></b></strong></div>
<div id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"> </font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b><br/></font><span id="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;">At the very beginning of this discussion, Mark gave this link as proof that Christianity is more murderous than Islam:</span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><a href="http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"><u><font color="#0000FF"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html</span></font></u></a><br/><font face="Calibri"><br/><font size="3">Its a long list of deaths that have been directly attributed to christianity. To save time, Admin has attempted to verify the veracity and applicability of only a random selection of these alleged 'facts'.</font><br/><br/><b><font size="4">1. Alleged 'fact': Germany</font></b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><i>*1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]</i><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b><br/></b></font><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang=""><br/><b>Actual Historical Evidence:</b><br/></span></font></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang="">January<br/></span></font></font><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">– The Jewish population of Basal Switzerland is rounded up and incinerated, believed by the residents to be the cause of the ongoing Black death febuary 1 – Roughly 2,000 jews are burned to death in Strasburg<font size="3">. March 21</font> – The bulk of the 900 strong Jewish community of Eurfert Germany is murdered by the rest of the population which accuses the minority to be the underlying cause of the Black Death</span></blockquote>
<br/>I'm not going to go through every town, because it was pretty much the same reason. in some cases it may have been opportunism.<br/><u><br/></u></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;">Maybe here we need to define religious war.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Holy wars usually have three elements:<br/></span></span><div style="margin-left: 2em;">the achievement of a religious goal</div>
<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 2em;">authorised by a religious leader</div>
<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 2em;">a spiritual reward for those who take part</div>
</div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Francis Bacon said there were five causes for holy war: (he wrote in a Christian context, but the categories would be usable by any faith)</span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to spread the faith <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to retrieve countries that were once Christian, even though there are no Christians left there <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to rescue Christians in countries that were once Christian from 'the servitude of the infidels' <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">recover and purify consecrated places that are presently being 'polluted and profaned' <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">avenge blasphemous acts, or cruelties and killings of Christians (even if these took place long ago) </span></blockquote>
<span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><u><br/></u></span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><u>Conclusion: The quoted fact does not justify the allegation</u></b></span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><font size="4">2. Alleged Fact: England</font></b></span></div>
<div id="" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><i>*1257, 1267 Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]<br/></i><br/><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang=""><b>Actual Historical Evidence:</b><br/></span></font></font><br/></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><u>1257-1267<br/></u></b></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b>English Jews<br/></b></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Historian K Deschner reports extermination of Jewish communities in London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln and Cambridge. <b><u>Unverified.</u></b> The Jewish history site reports pillaging during a civil war of 1263 (opportunistic, not specifically anti-Semitic) and damage to a synagogue that year, but no "extermination". <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">This was part of what are known as the baron wars.</span></blockquote>
<div><b><u>Conclusion: The quoted fact does not justify the allegation</u></b> </div>
<span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br/>We went through other items in the list and found a twisting of historical truth, in all of them. Mark's capricious (or is it malicious?) use of this spurious source caused Admin to waste many hours checking out facts for which a simple check by him would have shown their distortion.<br/></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Kinana,
Here's a taste....…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1038862012-06-11T10:42:04.865ZMarkhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Mark
<p></p>
<p><b>Kinana,</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em>Here's a taste....</em></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em><b>"Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take</em><i> </i><em><b>your</b></em><i> </i><em>pick"</em></p>
<p><em>Would you deny that it pretty much has always been the accepted Christian doctrine that if I don't accept Jesus as my lord and savior, that either I'll be annihilated (killed for good) or as most popular, that I'll be punished and…</em></p>
<p></p>
<p><b>Kinana,</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em>Here's a taste....</em></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em><b>"Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take</em><i> </i><em><b>your</b></em><i> </i><em>pick"</em></p>
<p><em>Would you deny that it pretty much has always been the accepted Christian doctrine that if I don't accept Jesus as my lord and savior, that either I'll be annihilated (killed for good) or as most popular, that I'll be punished and tortured for all of eternity? Not just for a few billion years to make me perhaps change my mind. No. For all of eternity. For the horrible crime of not being a Christian, and presumably being deceived by a spiritual being called "Satan."The reply to this is usually something about my free will, however I know that this can be no good explanation, because if I can deceive someone to believe as an example, that the red light means go and the green light means stop, all of your free will in the world won't stop you from running many a red light. So billions of people are going to be punished and tortured for not being a Christian, and at that, for all of eternity. Gosh, where could Muhammad have gotten such a an idea from, regarding not being a Muslim? <u>Would you deny that the best teacher teaches by example?</u></em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em><b>Brother Mark:)</b></em></p>
<p><br/></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/comment/show?id=3766518%3AComment%3A104032&xn_out=json&firstPage=0&lastPage=1&xg_token=42cb7bea884698a0a8db078628a9f6e3&_=1339468575101#3766518Comment104032"><div><p><br/> <cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103938&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#3766518Comment103933"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><strong>Kinana,</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><b>"I think we may have reached an impasse. I do not accept the first point of your definition of Christianity (via Webster dictionary). But if that is what you believe then you go ahead. Use whatever definitions you want to suit your own opinions and conclusions agreed to by yourself. That is fine by me". </b></p>
<p><em>You're the one one not accepting the Webster's dictionary definition of Christianity, but yet you seem to want to make it sound as if I'm just believing what I want regarding the term from nowhere as it suits me. You're the one here who refused to give <u>your</u> definition of the word Christianity or accept the dictionary definition even though you yourself I presume are a Christian! and told me "I'll let you define it." Perhaps this is because you might be aware that your definition (whatever that might be) would fail to meet any standard of objective scrutiny and would only serve to placate your very specialized perception of what you would like Christianity to mean for you. </em></p>
<p><strong>"I do not want to let my phrase ‘main-stream Church’ be a stumbling block. So let it be any Church with a large international membership. Take your pick". </strong></p>
<p><em>As you define "main stream church" I would have to say that any "main stream church" would qualify to answer your question of which "main stream" church teaching coincides with my understanding of Christianity as I am promoting it here.</em></p>
<p><em><b>Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take <b>your</b> pick.</em></p>
<p> <b><i>"I asked you to cite " <u>main-stream"</u> Church teaching which coincides with your understanding of Christianity as you are promoting here."</i></b></p>
<p><b><i>"I am asking you about your claims about <u>Christianity</u>, hence its teachings and the sort of behaviour it encourages amongst Christians".</i></b></p>
<p>As you have allowed me to work with the Webster's dictionary definition of Christianity, and given some of the conversation that we have already had, I believe that both of these are about to be finally dealt with in an earnest manner.</p>
<p><b>"If you wish to stay with your word ‘Christianity’ as opposed to ‘Christians’ and since Christianity is taught by Christian churches then my request to you remains. But bear in mind your own methodology of ‘taking the Bible as a whole…’ Quoting individual versus violates your own methodology".</b></p>
<p>The individual verses were only being quoted to underscore the fact that there is far more encouragement and justification for violence in the Bible <i>"taken as a whole"</i> than anything written about forgiveness and loving kindness.</p>
<p><u>Please forgive me if any of my conversation offends you, I only consider it good and meaningful conversation. I love you also.</u></p>
<p><u> </u></p>
<p><b>Brother Mark:)</b></p>
<p><b>P.S.</b></p>
<p><b> I'll plan on being back in touch tomorrow....it's breakfast time!</b></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Kinana said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103881"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Mark</p>
<p>I think we may have reached an impasse. I do not accept the first point of your definition of Christianity (via Webster dictionary). But if that is what you believe then you go ahead. Use whatever definitions you want to suit your own opinions and conclusions agreed to by yourself. That is fine by me. </p>
<p>You are making claims about Christianity so let’s move on to the next point. If your claims are true then I repeat:</p>
<p>‘What would strengthen your argument is if you quoted a main-stream Church and source that says what you believe to be true about Christianity.’</p>
<p>I do not want to let my phrase ‘main-stream Church’ be a stumbling block. So let it be any Church with a large international membership. Take your pick. </p>
<p>Bear in mind the topic of this discussion is your claim:</p>
<p><i>The atrocity's of Christianity historically, make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.</i></p>
<p>To help you a bit, would it not be more accurate to say that you believe:</p>
<p>‘Historically speaking the atrocities that Christians have engaged in make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.’</p>
<p>This way you are not talking about Christianity but about the behaviour of Christians. </p>
<p>If you wish to stay with your word ‘Christianity’ as opposed to ‘Christians’ and since Christianity is taught by Christian churches then my request to you remains. But bear in mind your own methodology of ‘taking the Bible as a whole…’ Quoting individual versus violates your own methodology.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> Kinana,
Here's a taste....…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1040322012-06-11T10:32:14.484ZMarkhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Mark
<p><b>Kinana,</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em>Here's a taste....</em></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em><b>"Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take</em><i> </i><em><b>your</b></em><i> </i><em>pick"</em></p>
<p><em>Would you deny that it pretty much has always been the accepted Christian doctrine that if I don't accept Jesus as my lord and savior, that either I'll be annihilated (killed for good) or as most popular, that I'll be punished and…</em></p>
<p><b>Kinana,</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em>Here's a taste....</em></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><em><b>"Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take</em><i> </i><em><b>your</b></em><i> </i><em>pick"</em></p>
<p><em>Would you deny that it pretty much has always been the accepted Christian doctrine that if I don't accept Jesus as my lord and savior, that either I'll be annihilated (killed for good) or as most popular, that I'll be punished and tortured for all of eternity? Not just for a few billion years to make me perhaps change my mind. No. For all of eternity. For the horrible crime of not being a Christian, and presumably being deceived by a spiritual being called "Satan."The reply to this is usually something about my free will, however I know that this can be no good explanation, because if I can deceive someone to believe as an example, that the red light means go and the green light means stop, all of your free will in the world won't stop you from running many a red light. So billions of people are going to be punished and tortured for not being a Christian, and at that, for all of eternity. Gosh, where could Muhammad have gotten such a an idea from, regarding not being a Muslim? </em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p><em><b>Brother Mark:)</b></em></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103938&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#3766518Comment103933"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><strong>Kinana,</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><b>"I think we may have reached an impasse. I do not accept the first point of your definition of Christianity (via Webster dictionary). But if that is what you believe then you go ahead. Use whatever definitions you want to suit your own opinions and conclusions agreed to by yourself. That is fine by me". </b></p>
<p><em>You're the one one not accepting the Webster's dictionary definition of Christianity, but yet you seem to want to make it sound as if I'm just believing what I want regarding the term from nowhere as it suits me. You're the one here who refused to give <u>your</u> definition of the word Christianity or accept the dictionary definition even though you yourself I presume are a Christian! and told me "I'll let you define it." Perhaps this is because you might be aware that your definition (whatever that might be) would fail to meet any standard of objective scrutiny and would only serve to placate your very specialized perception of what you would like Christianity to mean for you. </em></p>
<p><strong>"I do not want to let my phrase ‘main-stream Church’ be a stumbling block. So let it be any Church with a large international membership. Take your pick". </strong></p>
<p><em>As you define "main stream church" I would have to say that any "main stream church" would qualify to answer your question of which "main stream" church teaching coincides with my understanding of Christianity as I am promoting it here.</em></p>
<p><em><b>Any</b></em> <em>main stream church as well as the "minor stream" one's as well. You can take <b>your</b> pick.</em></p>
<p> <b><i>"I asked you to cite " <u>main-stream"</u> Church teaching which coincides with your understanding of Christianity as you are promoting here."</i></b></p>
<p><b><i>"I am asking you about your claims about <u>Christianity</u>, hence its teachings and the sort of behaviour it encourages amongst Christians".</i></b></p>
<p>As you have allowed me to work with the Webster's dictionary definition of Christianity, and given some of the conversation that we have already had, I believe that both of these are about to be finally dealt with in an earnest manner.</p>
<p><b>"If you wish to stay with your word ‘Christianity’ as opposed to ‘Christians’ and since Christianity is taught by Christian churches then my request to you remains. But bear in mind your own methodology of ‘taking the Bible as a whole…’ Quoting individual versus violates your own methodology".</b></p>
<p>The individual verses were only being quoted to underscore the fact that there is far more encouragement and justification for violence in the Bible <i>"taken as a whole"</i> than anything written about forgiveness and loving kindness.</p>
<p><u>Please forgive me if any of my conversation offends you, I only consider it good and meaningful conversation. I love you also.</u></p>
<p><u> </u></p>
<p><b>Brother Mark:)</b></p>
<p><b>P.S.</b></p>
<p><b> I'll plan on being back in touch tomorrow....it's breakfast time!</b></p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Kinana said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103881"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Mark</p>
<p>I think we may have reached an impasse. I do not accept the first point of your definition of Christianity (via Webster dictionary). But if that is what you believe then you go ahead. Use whatever definitions you want to suit your own opinions and conclusions agreed to by yourself. That is fine by me. </p>
<p>You are making claims about Christianity so let’s move on to the next point. If your claims are true then I repeat:</p>
<p>‘What would strengthen your argument is if you quoted a main-stream Church and source that says what you believe to be true about Christianity.’</p>
<p>I do not want to let my phrase ‘main-stream Church’ be a stumbling block. So let it be any Church with a large international membership. Take your pick. </p>
<p>Bear in mind the topic of this discussion is your claim:</p>
<p><i>The atrocity's of Christianity historically, make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.</i></p>
<p>To help you a bit, would it not be more accurate to say that you believe:</p>
<p>‘Historically speaking the atrocities that Christians have engaged in make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.’</p>
<p>This way you are not talking about Christianity but about the behaviour of Christians. </p>
<p>If you wish to stay with your word ‘Christianity’ as opposed to ‘Christians’ and since Christianity is taught by Christian churches then my request to you remains. But bear in mind your own methodology of ‘taking the Bible as a whole…’ Quoting individual versus violates your own methodology.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Message from Admin Team: COC…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1039452012-06-11T10:25:26.560ZNetconhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Netcon
<p><strong>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark…</strong></p>
<p><strong>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</strong></p>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong>Relevant Post: </strong> <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" class="Apple-converted-space"><strong>Clause Breached:</strong> </span> <strong id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><font id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: inherit; font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" face="Helvetica" size="2">4.7.3 Strange Use of Language<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></font></strong></strong><div id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Warning Level: RED</b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"> </b></strong></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;">Explanation<br/></strong>There are many examples of this Strange Use of Language, but we just explain the one for brevity.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In this post, Alan Lake explains the 2 differing interpretations of the English statements given:<br/><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103767&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103767&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">The 1st interpretation, assigned to Mark is a strange one. The 2nd interpretation, assigned to John, is the statistically 'normal' one.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Mark does not contest this interpretation in his reply below. He continues on happily from it, so he must accept it. </div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Even if Mark were to come back and say <em>now</em> that he didn't accept it, that would be violation 4.7.4 - Strange Mental Models, since we don't expect people to let that kind of allegation pass by them, while they blissfully continue on to another point.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: normal; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Normally, for these kinds of possible misunderstandings, we issue a Yellow warning. However, in Mark's case, there are many instances of this strange use of language, and it has caused a great deal of frustration and time wasting amongst our members, as we struggle to help someone, in our foolish kindness. Therefore, this warning has been raised to Red level.</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p><cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103600&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886#3766518Comment103600"><div><p><strong>John,</strong></p>
<p><strong>"I am just making this one post to try to save a lot of unnecessary argument here. I will try expand how I think the 2 different speakers are understanding these statements. I do not want to join this discussion, I am just trying to avoid the two speakers talking at cross purposes".</strong></p>
<p><strong> Alan Lake</strong></p>
<p>I'll take this opportunity to comment on what Alan has had to say. </p>
<p>Once more....</p>
<p><span>I also find it interesting that many of America's Christian's were left out of this poll, as an example we have the Southern Baptist congregation. There are </span><em>many</em><span> types of Southern Baptist congregations in America, not just down South! There are also the many "Evangelicals" among many other sects of Christianity, ask any of these sometime if they believe the Bible to be the unerring word of God, whether actual or inspired and listen to what they tell you.</span></p>
<p><strong>Christian Bible (New International Version)</strong></p>
<p><strong>2 Peter 1:20-21</strong></p>
<p><strong><span id="en-NIV-30500" class="text 2Pet-1-20"><sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Above all, you must understand that <em>no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.</em></span><em> </em><span id="en-NIV-30501" class="text 2Pet-1-21"><sup class="versenum">21 </sup><em>For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>However one may choose to interpret "actual " or "inspired".......</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em>2 Timothy 3:16-17</em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span class="text 2Pet-1-21"><em><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><sup class="versenum">16 </sup><span style="text-decoration: underline;">All Scripture is</span></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> <span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16">God-breathed</span></span><span id="en-NIV-29870" class="text 2Tim-3-16"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,</span> </span><span id="en-NIV-29871" class="text 2Tim-3-17"><sup class="versenum">17 </sup>so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.</span></em></span></strong></p>
<p><strong>The Bible teaches that <span style="text-decoration: underline;">all scripture is "God breathed."</span> I've never met a Christian willing to concede that their "God breathed" scripture was not the unerring word of their perfect and unerring God, and that it needed "updating". </strong></p>
<p><strong>Brother Mark:)</strong></p>
</div>
</blockquote> Message from Admin Team: COC…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1039442012-06-11T10:09:16.511ZNetconhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Netcon
<p style="margin: 0px 0px 1em; padding: 0px; line-height: 17px; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; min-height: 1em; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 0px 1em; padding: 0px; line-height: 17px; font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; min-height: 1em; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"><u style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;">Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</u></b> <font style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: inherit; font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" color="#2B0C03" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; line-height: 17px;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"><br/></b></span></font></p>
<p>Relevant Post: <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103881&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103881&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886</a></p>
<p><font style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; line-height: inherit; font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;" face="Calibri" size="3"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;">Clause Breached:</b></font> <strong id="" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;">4.4.3 Fogging and Disconnect<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></b></strong><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Warning Level: YELLOW</b></strong></p>
<p><strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Explanation<br/></b></strong></p>
<p>Kinana has made numerous attempts to get answers to his questions. Mark is just playing cat-and-mouse with him, spinning the process out, and consuming everyone's time for no benefit.<strong style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><br/></b></strong></p>
<p><br/> <cite>Kinana said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=9#3766518Comment103881"><div><p>Mark</p>
<p>I think we may have reached an impasse. I do not accept the first point of your definition of Christianity (via Webster dictionary). But if that is what you believe then you go ahead. Use whatever definitions you want to suit your own opinions and conclusions agreed to by yourself. That is fine by me. </p>
<p>You are making claims about Christianity so let’s move on to the next point. If your claims are true then I repeat:</p>
<p>‘What would strengthen your argument is if you quoted a main-stream Church and source that says what you believe to be true about Christianity.’</p>
<p>I do not want to let my phrase ‘main-stream Church’ be a stumbling block. So let it be any Church with a large international membership. Take your pick. </p>
<p>Bear in mind the topic of this discussion is your claim:</p>
<p><i>The atrocity's of Christianity historically, make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.</i></p>
<p>To help you a bit, would it not be more accurate to say that you believe:</p>
<p>‘Historically speaking the atrocities that Christians have engaged in make what Islam as done not much more than a drop in the bucket.’</p>
<p>This way you are not talking about Christianity but about the behaviour of Christians. </p>
<p>If you wish to stay with your word ‘Christianity’ as opposed to ‘Christians’ and since Christianity is taught by Christian churches then my request to you remains. But bear in mind your own methodology of ‘taking the Bible as a whole…’ Quoting individual versus violates your own methodology.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
</div>
</blockquote> Message from Admin Team: COC…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1039432012-06-11T09:46:57.412ZNetconhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Netcon
<p><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</u></b></p>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: …</b></font></div>
<p><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</u></b></p>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103251&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103251&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886</a><br/></b></font></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Clause Breached:</b></font> <strong id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="font-size: 13px; xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 17px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: #fff8d5;">4.2.3 Unsubstantiated Allegations<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></strong></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><strong style="xg-p: static ! important; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="xg-p: static ! important; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">Warning Level: YELLOW<br style="font-size: 1em; xg-p: static ! important;"/></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; text-align: left;"><font color="#2B0C03" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 17px;"><b> </b></span></font></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b></font></div>
<blockquote><div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: small;"><i style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;"><u>Mark asked:<br/></u> <b><br/>Would you deny that given both their history and scripture, that they at least have great potential for unjust persecution and violence?"<br/></b></i><u style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;"><br/>Joe answered</u><br style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;"/><br style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;"/><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">That statement is a long way from your claim that the blood spilt by islam is a drop in the bucket of the blood spilt by christianity. You don't seem to be prepared to admit that you were wrong, yet you don't provide any of the evidence I asked you to provide.</span> <span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">Buddhism, christianity and islam all have potential for unjust persecution and violence. Water has the potential to kill. But it isn't classed as a weapon.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: small;"><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">Mark has changed his allegation in a dishonest way, i.e. without either:<br/></span></div>
<div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); font-size: small;"><ul>
<li><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">withdrawing the original, or</span></li>
<li><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">admitting it was wrong, or</span></li>
<li><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-size: small;">saying he is changing it.<br/></span></li>
</ul>
</div>
<p><cite>Joe said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103251&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886#3766518Comment103251"><div><p>Brother Mark said: "<strong><i>Would you deny that given both their history and scripture, that they at least have great potential for unjust persecution and violence?"</i></strong></p>
<p>That statement is a long way from your claim that the blood spilt by islam is a drop in the bucket of the blood spilt by christianity. You don't seem to be prepared to admit that you were wrong, yet you don't provide any of the evidence I asked you to provide.</p>
<p>Buddhism, christianity and islam all have potential for unjust persecution and violence. Water has the potential to kill. But it isn't classed as a weapon.</p>
<p>Again, you want to collapse scripture and subsequent history together, because that suits your purpose. Of course I deny that on the basis of scripture christianity has the same potential for violence and persecution as islam. No muslim has ever been able to provide me with texts from the New Testament which justify murder. You can insist (as muslims do) that christianity and islam share the same roots; but the point is exactly as I've been laying out - christianity is a moderating voice against that Old Testament background; islam is a war-mongering voice against that Old Testament background. It is no surprise when a war-mongering voice leads to war. It is a surprise when a doctrine of peace and love leads to war. <strong>You want to claim christianity is violent because it holds onto the Old Testament; but you seem to ignore that islam also holds onto the Old Testament, and then bolsters it with yet more calls for violence. And you are the one who has put forward the claim that christianity is far worse than islam when it comes to murder. </strong></p>
<p>Now when we look at the history as given in the list of "christian atrocities" you cited, there is nothing before the incorporation of christianity into the Roman Empire. That history would appear to be totally at odds with the comparable history of islam. Just like you think that the life of buddha and Theravaden Buddhism is the originary buddhism, so we can look at the lives of Jesus and Mohammed, and the initial followers of their religion as the undistorted representations of those religions.</p>
<p>Now, having answered your question, can you do me the courtesy of answering the questions I posed to you.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote> Message from Admin Team: COC…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1039412012-06-11T09:12:18.244ZNetconhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Netcon
<p><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violations by member: Mark</u></b></p>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: …</b></font></div>
<p><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violations by member: Mark</u></b></p>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A103443&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christia...</a><br/></b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Clause Breached:</b></font> <strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">4.4.3 Fogging and Disconnect <strong style="font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px;"> (Substandard Responses and Refutations)</strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px;">Warning Level: YELLOW<br/></strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); text-align: left;"><font color="#2B0C03" face="Helvetica"><span style="line-height: 17px;"><b> </b></span></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b></font></div>
<div id="" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><b><i>Mark says:<br/></i></b><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><b><i>Would you deny that given both their history and scripture, that they at least have great potential for unjust persecution and violence?"</i></b></blockquote>
<br/> <span>To which joe replied;</span><br/><br/>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><span>That statement is a long way from your claim that the blood spilt by islam is a drop in the bucket of the blood spilt by christianity. You don't seem to be prepared to admit that you were wrong, yet you don't provide any of the evidence I asked you to provide. </span><b>"What I challenge you to do is to provide evidence that in the 300 years following the death of Jesus, that christians exhibited the same rapacious, murderous actions as muslims did in the 300 years following his death</b></blockquote>
<br/> <span>Instead of answering Joe, Mark issues more challenges.</span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>_____________________________________________________________________________________</b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b> </b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown">Clause Breached:</b></font> <strong style="color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;">4.4.1 Fobbing Off & <b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">4.4.3 Fogging and Disconnect<br style="font-size: 1em;"/></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><strong style="color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px;">Warning Level: RED</strong></b></strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font color="#2B0C03" face="Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 17px;"><b> </b></span></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b></font></div>
<p><font style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);" face="Calibri" size="3">Joe asked this;</font><font style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);" face="Arial" size="3"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br/></span></font></font></p>
<blockquote><p><font face="Arial" size="3"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">"And if christianity (even as it has been exploited by rulers) was so violent and aggressive, why is it that half of the christian world was lost to islam, and those christian rulers have never used violence to reclaim those loses (except for Spain & Portugal)?"</span></font></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p><font style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);" face="Arial" size="3"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Mark replies:</span></font></font></p>
<blockquote><p><b>Islam here was the better at violence, that's why.</b></p>
</blockquote>
<p><b style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><br/> 4.4.1 Fobbing Off<br/></b><i style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);">Fobbing Off is making a flippant reply to a genuine or realistic question, or sometimes no reply. If this is done to a 4F Admin it is a more serious matter.</i><br style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"/><br style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"/><b style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);">4.4.3 Fogging and Disconnect<br/></b> <i style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);">Fogging<b> </b>is replying to a point, by raising some unrelated issue as a diversion, and not responding to the original point at all. We all do this to some extent, but if it is done often, it becomes a tactic to distract and exhaust all opposition. Another manifestation of this tactic would be to endlessly wander off topic, or just be generally incoherent, thus making it difficult for others to continue a sensible line of thought and discussion.</i></p>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><i> </i></div>
<div id="" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><b>N.B. Please note that although we have given an explanation and quoted the relevant COC clauses here, Admin team is not obliged to do this. It is being done as a convenience and learning experience for members. We are only obliged to quote the clause and the warning level against the relevant text.</b></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><b><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>_____________________________________________________________________________________</b></font><br/></b></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><b> </b></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Clauses Breached:</b></font> <strong style="color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">4.4.3 Fogging and Disconnect<br/></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 13px; text-align: left; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><strong style="color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px;">Warning Level: RED</strong></b></strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><strong style="color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px;"> </strong></b></strong></b></strong></div>
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<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: 13px; color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b></font></div>
<blockquote><p><b style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;"><u><font face="Calibri"><span xml:lang="" lang="">Mark said<br/></span></font></u></b> <b><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">I also have found great similarities between the book of Deuteronomy and the teachings of Islam. Just where pray tell do you think the Muslim prophet Muhammad got many of his ideas from?</span></b><br style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;"/><a href="http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism_Between_the_Qur%27an_and_Judeo-Christian_Scriptures" target="_blank" style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;"><u><font color="#0000FF"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism_Between_the_Qur%27an_and_Jude...</span></font></u></a><br style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;"/><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br/> Joe responded with:<br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Muhhammad got his 'ideas' from Allah surely?</span></p>
</blockquote>
<br/> <b><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><font size="4"><br/></font>This is not relevant to the question of whether Christians or Muslims are more murderous. It is Fogging.</span><br/></b></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><b><span style="color: #000000; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: small;" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>_____________________________________________________________________________________</b></font></span></b></div>
<p><br/><br/><cite>Mark said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A96886&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A103421&page=1#3766518Comment103443"><div><p><strong>Joe,</strong></p>
<p><strong>"What is missing from this history is context."</strong></p>
<p><strong>"Murder in the name of christianity comes from incorporation of christianity into religions of state,"...</strong></p>
<p><strong>It's interesting that you give the same apologetic that the Islamic fundamentalists give for the Islamic conquest. You know, it wasn't really us... it was those darn political rulers! </strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>"And if christianity (even as it has been exploited by rulers) was so violent and aggressive, why is it that half of the christian world was lost to islam, and those christian rulers have never used violence to reclaim those loses (except for Spain & Portugal)?"</strong></p>
<p>Islam here was the better at violence, that's why. </p>
<p><strong>"The page cited by Brother Mark refers to cases where up to 1 million people were killed in specific events, by the edict of those claiming to follow christianity. Yet clearly they had usurped christianity, and their actions were going against the teachings of Jesus." </strong></p>
<p><strong>"Whilst the rulers of christian empires went against christianity in order to massacre and dominate,"...</strong></p>
<p><strong>"And even if the killings in the name of christianity did outnumber those killed in the name of islam, such actions would have been against the teaching of Jesus, whilst they would have been in accordance with the teachings of Mohammed."</strong></p>
<p><strong>The New Testament book of Acts Ch.5 tells the story of how a husband and wife were murdered for selling some land and then not coughing it all up to peter when they lied about how much they got for it. Who murdered them? It was none other than the precious "holy" spirit of Jesus. Shame on them for lying!</strong></p>
<p><sup>9 </sup>Peter said to her, <i>“How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord?</i> Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”<strong> </strong><sup>10 </sup>At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. <b><sup>11 </sup></b><i>Great fear</i><i> </i><i>seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.</i><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5&version=NIV">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5&version=NIV</a></p>
<p>Take a look at some <span style="text-decoration: underline;">modern day</span>Christian commentary on this...</p>
<p>"This chilling account of the sudden deaths of Ananias (Hebrew, "the Lord is gracious") and Sapphira (Aramaic, "beautiful") <i>makes us face the fact that God deals with sin, especially church members' deceit and lack of integrity"...</i></p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Such discipline certainly has its deterrent value." <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Negative-Example-Ananias">http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Acts/Nega...</a> </p>
<p>Although Jesus had some very good things to say, the God that they worship is no different than the vengeful, rath filled God of the Old Testament.</p>
<p>Murdering someone for lying? Would anyone care to deny that the best teacher teaches by example? To say that there are conflicting messages in the New Testament as well as the Bible itself, I believe would be fair....don't you?</p>
<p>This is good piece that you may wish to read:</p>
<p>This discusses the similarities between the Qur'an and Judeo Christian scripture.</p>
<p>I also have found great similarities between the book of Deuteronomy and the teachings of Islam. Just where pray tell do you think the Muslim prophet Muhammad got many of his ideas from?</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism_Between_the_Qur%27an_and_Judeo-Christian_Scriptures">http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism_Between_the_Qur%27an_and_Jude...</a></p>
<p>Any Christian will acknowledge that the Christian Bible consists of both Old and New Testament, and claim that God is the same God as was is , is now, and shall be. Considering this, and taking the Christian Bible as a whole, there is certainly more to be used to justify the killing of those deemed "un Godly" than others would rather acknowledge.</p>
<p>Have you forgotten about their "witch" hunting, the murdering of heretics (the Christian form of Islam's "apostate"), or the slaughter of indigenous peoples, just to name a few other examples, all in the name and for the sake of their Christian God? </p>
<p><i>Would you deny that given both their history and scripture, that they at least have great potential for unjust persecution and violence?</i></p>
<p>With metta,</p>
<p><b>Brother Mark:)</b></p>
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<p><br/> <cite>Joe said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam?groupUrl=christians&xg_source=activity#3766518Comment103515"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>OK, I thought perhaps your remarks were throwaway, but now it seems you really want to stand by your claim that christianity has been hundreds of times more murderous than islam. Your remarks about islam being quiescent during the 2nd & 3rd jihads implies you think that modern day christian nations are in a temporary lull from their love of murder and violence. ...</p>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote> Message from Admin Team: COC…tag:4freedoms.com,2012-06-11:3766518:Comment:1039382012-06-11T08:32:12.575ZNetconhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Netcon
<p><font face="Calibri" size="3" style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font color="#0000FF"><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark…</u></b></font></font></p>
<p><font style="color: #222222; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);" face="Calibri" size="3"><font color="#0000FF"><b><u>Message from Admin Team: COC Violation by member: Mark</u></b></font></font></p>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Relevant Post: <a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/christians/forum/topics/is-christianity-more-murderous-than-islam</a><br/></b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); text-align: left;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Clauses Breached:</b></font> <strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica;"><strong style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">4.2.3 Unsubstantiated Allegations &</strong> 4.6.4 Shoddy Evidence and Research (Time Wasting)<br/></strong></b></strong></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918); text-align: left;"><strong style="font-size: 13px; color: #2b0c03; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 16px; background-color: #fff8d5;"><b style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; line-height: 17px;"><strong style="font-family: Helvetica;">Warning Level: 4.2.3 = YELLOW; 4.6.4 = RED<br/></strong></b></strong></div>
<div id="aeaoofnhgocdbnbeljkmbjdmhbcokfdb-mousedown" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"> </font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b>Explanation:</b><br/></font><span id="" style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;">At the very beginning of this discussion, Mark gave this link as proof that Christianity is more murderous than Islam:</span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><a href="http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"><u><font color="#0000FF"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html</span></font></u></a><br/><font face="Calibri"><br/><font size="3">Its a long list of deaths that have been directly attributed to christianity. To save time, Admin has attempted to verify the veracity and applicability of only a random selection of these alleged 'facts'.</font><br/><br/><b><font size="4">1. Alleged 'fact': Germany</font></b></font></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><i>*1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]</i><font face="Calibri" size="3"><b><br/></b></font><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang=""><br/><b>Actual Historical Evidence:</b><br/></span></font></font><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang="">January<br/></span></font></font><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">– The Jewish population of Basal Switzerland is rounded up and incinerated, believed by the residents to be the cause of the ongoing Black death febuary 1 – Roughly 2,000 jews are burned to death in Strasburg<font size="3">. March 21</font> – The bulk of the 900 strong Jewish community of Eurfert Germany is murdered by the rest of the population which accuses the minority to be the underlying cause of the Black Death</span></blockquote>
<br/>I'm not going to go through every town, because it was pretty much the same reason. in some cases it may have been opportunism.<br/><u><br/></u></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;">Maybe here we need to define religious war.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: medium;"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Holy wars usually have three elements:<br/></span></span><div style="margin-left: 2em;">the achievement of a religious goal</div>
<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 2em;">authorised by a religious leader</div>
<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 2em;">a spiritual reward for those who take part</div>
</div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Francis Bacon said there were five causes for holy war: (he wrote in a Christian context, but the categories would be usable by any faith)</span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to spread the faith <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to retrieve countries that were once Christian, even though there are no Christians left there <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">to rescue Christians in countries that were once Christian from 'the servitude of the infidels' <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">recover and purify consecrated places that are presently being 'polluted and profaned' <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">avenge blasphemous acts, or cruelties and killings of Christians (even if these took place long ago) </span></blockquote>
<span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><u><br/></u></span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><u>Conclusion: The quoted fact does not justify the allegation</u></b></span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"> </span></div>
<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><font size="4">2. Alleged Fact: England</font></b></span></div>
<div id="" style="color: #222222; font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.918);"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><i>*1257, 1267 Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]<br/></i><br/><font face="Calibri" size="3"><font face="Calibri" size="3"><span xml:lang="" lang=""><b>Actual Historical Evidence:</b><br/></span></font></font><br/></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;"><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b><u>1257-1267<br/></u></b></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><b>English Jews<br/></b></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Historian K Deschner reports extermination of Jewish communities in London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln and Cambridge. <b><u>Unverified.</u></b> The Jewish history site reports pillaging during a civil war of 1263 (opportunistic, not specifically anti-Semitic) and damage to a synagogue that year, but no "extermination". <br/></span><span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">This was part of what are known as the baron wars.</span></blockquote>
<div><b><u>Conclusion: The quoted fact does not justify the allegation</u></b> </div>
<span xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><br/>We went through other items in the list and found a twisting of historical truth, in all of them. Mark's capricious (or is it malicious?) use of this spurious source caused Admin to waste many hours checking out facts for which a simple check by him would have shown their distortion.<br/></span></div>