Spirituality v. Rationality v. Mythology - The 4 Freedoms Library2024-03-29T05:47:12Zhttp://4freedoms.com/forum/topics/spirituality-v-rationality-v-mythology?groupUrl=theology&commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A88725&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A7416&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhen i refer to Greco-Roman i…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-21:3766518:Comment:898102011-11-21T11:35:51.096ZJonothon Boulterhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/JonothonBoulter
<p>When i refer to Greco-Roman i also refer to our Secular heritage inc which has come with the Spirit of the West.</p>
<p>See Eccentric Culture by the scholar Remi Brague who sees Roman as the great synthesiser the Imperial mindset that reconciles Athens and Jerusalem and anything else that comes before it.</p>
<p>Brague says that Islam must either be absorbed within the West or defeated externally as its cannot survive without taking over the West.</p>
<p>When i refer to Greco-Roman i also refer to our Secular heritage inc which has come with the Spirit of the West.</p>
<p>See Eccentric Culture by the scholar Remi Brague who sees Roman as the great synthesiser the Imperial mindset that reconciles Athens and Jerusalem and anything else that comes before it.</p>
<p>Brague says that Islam must either be absorbed within the West or defeated externally as its cannot survive without taking over the West.</p> For Britain we need a figure…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-21:3766518:Comment:898062011-11-21T11:20:42.020ZJonothon Boulterhttp://4freedoms.com/profile/JonothonBoulter
<p>For Britain we need a figure like Geert Wilders and his forbear Pim Fortyn who see Liberalism in its old Fashioned sense of preserving our Christian heritage ie inc Greco Roman which gave us our Freedoms and that anything that moves against this is our enemy. Liberalism must regain its right wing heritage and reject Political correctness.</p>
<p>The EDL are in some ways supportive of this model but we have no Politcal movement, no Wilders to guide them and move into the Political sphere to…</p>
<p>For Britain we need a figure like Geert Wilders and his forbear Pim Fortyn who see Liberalism in its old Fashioned sense of preserving our Christian heritage ie inc Greco Roman which gave us our Freedoms and that anything that moves against this is our enemy. Liberalism must regain its right wing heritage and reject Political correctness.</p>
<p>The EDL are in some ways supportive of this model but we have no Politcal movement, no Wilders to guide them and move into the Political sphere to challenge the EU and the New Left which control the centre of politics.</p>
<p>America, our allies have this within the Republican party. If all else fails and a Wilders dosnt step forward to save us then we may have to call upon our Republican allies to help us with a Fifth Column.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Thanks very much, Joe and Kin…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-21:3766518:Comment:900022011-11-21T01:50:48.028ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p>Thanks very much, Joe and Kinana.<br/>I try to respect the private sphere parts of religion, so its not a phrase I'll be bandying about a lot, but it helps to explain why our ancestors didn't have the problems we have, since that was their starting point!</p>
<p>Thanks very much, Joe and Kinana.<br/>I try to respect the private sphere parts of religion, so its not a phrase I'll be bandying about a lot, but it helps to explain why our ancestors didn't have the problems we have, since that was their starting point!</p> Thanks, I thought you'd remem…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-21:3766518:Comment:898022011-11-21T00:05:11.822ZJoehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/38DD
<p>Thanks, I thought you'd remember it. It was an interesting evening (but not so interesting for the muslims, I think).</p>
<p>My memory is so-so. My father's memory is astounding. Give him an event from the past (even 30 years ago), even a local/family event or a world-historical event, and he can tell you the date it happened. It has to be some kind of Asperger's thing, as he makes no effort to remember these things (he has never kept a diary). The event and the calendar date are…</p>
<p>Thanks, I thought you'd remember it. It was an interesting evening (but not so interesting for the muslims, I think).</p>
<p>My memory is so-so. My father's memory is astounding. Give him an event from the past (even 30 years ago), even a local/family event or a world-historical event, and he can tell you the date it happened. It has to be some kind of Asperger's thing, as he makes no effort to remember these things (he has never kept a diary). The event and the calendar date are inseparable in his memory. Measured against that, I always feel my memory is poor.</p>
<p>It has occurred to me this evening that maybe Alan was asking for a reference concerning the illegality of the Koran. If so, I believe that is mentioned in the preface/introduction to Giles Milton's <span style="text-decoration: underline;">White Gold</span>.</p>
<p><br/>
<cite>Kinana said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/spirituality-v-rationality-v-mythology?groupUrl=theology&xg_source=activity&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A7416&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A83233&page=5#3766518Comment89703"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Joe</p>
<p>You have a good memory. I rise to the challenge!</p>
<p>see here</p>
<p><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english</a></p>
<p>Ahmad Gunny of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies.</p>
<p>'With the exception of Carlyle’s positive portrayal in On Heroes, Hero-Worship and the Heroic in History, <strong>Muhammad is essentially presented all throughout the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries as an impostor...'</strong></p>
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</blockquote> Joe
You have a good memory. …tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-20:3766518:Comment:897032011-11-20T22:23:43.530ZKinanahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Kinana
<p>Joe</p>
<p>You have a good memory. I rise to the challenge!</p>
<p>see here</p>
<p><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english</a></p>
<p>Ahmad Gunny of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies.</p>
<p>'With the exception of Carlyle’s positive portrayal in On Heroes, Hero-Worship and the Heroic in History, <strong>Muhammad is essentially presented all throughout the XVIIIth and XIXth…</strong></p>
<p>Joe</p>
<p>You have a good memory. I rise to the challenge!</p>
<p>see here</p>
<p><a href="http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english" target="_blank">http://4freedoms.ning.com/events/muhammad-in-french-and-english</a></p>
<p>Ahmad Gunny of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies.</p>
<p>'With the exception of Carlyle’s positive portrayal in On Heroes, Hero-Worship and the Heroic in History, <strong>Muhammad is essentially presented all throughout the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries as an impostor...'</strong></p> A few of us went to a talk at…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-20:3766518:Comment:891192011-11-20T12:02:46.955ZJoehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/38DD
<p>A few of us went to a talk at the French Institute, a talk by a near-retirement-age muslim academic from Cambridge (I believe). He was there to promote a book he'd written on something like "representations of Mohammed in Europe since 1650". It was he who mentioned that Mohammed was known as "the imposter mohammed" in Europe until the 20th century. I was reminded of his remark last week when I was looking through some 18th century books and came across the phrase. A quick search for the…</p>
<p>A few of us went to a talk at the French Institute, a talk by a near-retirement-age muslim academic from Cambridge (I believe). He was there to promote a book he'd written on something like "representations of Mohammed in Europe since 1650". It was he who mentioned that Mohammed was known as "the imposter mohammed" in Europe until the 20th century. I was reminded of his remark last week when I was looking through some 18th century books and came across the phrase. A quick search for the phrase "imposter Mohammed" on books.google.com, certainly brings up some references. </p>
<p>Additionally, I had a quick look back through the 18th century books, and came across this one that refers to "the imposter Mohammed":</p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Dissertations on the prophecies, which have remarkably been fulfilled, and at this time are fulfilling in the world,</span> Thomas Newton, D.D., Perth, 1794, Volume 3 of 3, p.58</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If I come across other references in future, I'll post them here. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Perhaps Kinana can remember the name of the old academic, who seemed at the end of his career completely unused to being challenged in a public talk. His book may contain more references to that view of Mohammed.</p>
<p><br/>
<cite>Alan Lake said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://4freedoms.ning.com/forum/topics/spirituality-v-rationality-v-mythology?groupUrl=theology&xg_source=activity&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A7416&id=3766518%3ATopic%3A83233&page=5#3766518Comment89311"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><em>"A couple of hundred years ago the Koran was a banned book in Britain. And as Kinana will remember from our outing at the French Institute, Mohammed was known here until the 20th century not as "the prophet mohammed" but as "the imposter mohammed"</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amazing! Got any references? (I believe you but nobody else will).</p>
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</blockquote> to be fair Kinana, i now exac…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-20:3766518:Comment:891182011-11-20T11:04:10.362Zpaul collingshttp://4freedoms.com/profile/paulcollings
<p>to be fair Kinana, i now exactly what he ment but it was not his intention to make that clear, it was his intention to return to this debate with heels dragging like a small child. His insult to J/B was unwarrantable.</p>
<p>to be fair Kinana, i now exactly what he ment but it was not his intention to make that clear, it was his intention to return to this debate with heels dragging like a small child. His insult to J/B was unwarrantable.</p> "A couple of hundred years ag…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-20:3766518:Comment:893112011-11-20T02:05:28.040ZAlan Lakehttp://4freedoms.com/profile/AlanLake
<p><em>"A couple of hundred years ago the Koran was a banned book in Britain. And as Kinana will remember from our outing at the French Institute, Mohammed was known here until the 20th century not as "the prophet mohammed" but as "the imposter mohammed"</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amazing! Got any references? (I believe you but nobody else will).</p>
<p><em>"A couple of hundred years ago the Koran was a banned book in Britain. And as Kinana will remember from our outing at the French Institute, Mohammed was known here until the 20th century not as "the prophet mohammed" but as "the imposter mohammed"</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Amazing! Got any references? (I believe you but nobody else will).</p> Paul
to be fair, as i underst…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-19:3766518:Comment:892092011-11-19T23:26:23.915ZKinanahttp://4freedoms.com/profile/Kinana
<p>Paul</p>
<p>to be fair, as i understand it, Jack in another conversation/discussion was referring to an actual physical slap by Tommy Robinson on a person who used words which Tommy objected to. I do not think Jack has, or is advocating, physically slapping Christians for being and promoting Christianity. the discussion of ideas is, or should be, acceptable in all forums. including of course the idea that Jack his completely and utterly wrong in his portrayal of Christianity. verbal…</p>
<p>Paul</p>
<p>to be fair, as i understand it, Jack in another conversation/discussion was referring to an actual physical slap by Tommy Robinson on a person who used words which Tommy objected to. I do not think Jack has, or is advocating, physically slapping Christians for being and promoting Christianity. the discussion of ideas is, or should be, acceptable in all forums. including of course the idea that Jack his completely and utterly wrong in his portrayal of Christianity. verbal 'slaps' are permitted with, hopefully, rational and factual info to support ones position.</p> Hello jack,
How wonderfull…tag:4freedoms.com,2011-11-19:3766518:Comment:892082011-11-19T20:15:57.339Zpaul collingshttp://4freedoms.com/profile/paulcollings
<p>Hello jack,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How wonderfull fo have you back. I thought you,d left and took your ball with you, or was it just you,d threatened to leave if we didn,t all dhimmi down and agree with you. I,m not sure. Any way good to see you and your ball back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I see your Islamic studys are going well and you've learn,t how great it is to give christianity a good slagging off. Calling christians cretins As well as a giving them good slap, proves your conversion is going…</p>
<p>Hello jack,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How wonderfull fo have you back. I thought you,d left and took your ball with you, or was it just you,d threatened to leave if we didn,t all dhimmi down and agree with you. I,m not sure. Any way good to see you and your ball back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I see your Islamic studys are going well and you've learn,t how great it is to give christianity a good slagging off. Calling christians cretins As well as a giving them good slap, proves your conversion is going well...</p>
<p> </p>
<p> Of cause this can,t work the other way can it. Tommy Must be chastised for giving someone who insulted him a slap, while of cause you should be applauded for giving christians a good slap. (when they get uppity). A case of double standards. Very Islamic. Or Troll like.</p>
<p>Yes wellcome back jack. </p>
<p> </p>