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Fightback by Ideology, Dialogue & Constitution

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Fightback by Ideology, Dialogue & Constitution

Deals with ideological threats to our freedom and society.  

Analyses argument and rhetoric in all its forms: media interview, debate, and oratory.

Also considers fight back by fixing the 4 constitutional vulnerabilities as identified in the principles of 4F.

Members: 42
Latest Activity: on Friday

Key Info

Religious arguments go in the Theology Room, so all the rest (i.e. secular ones) come into this room. One-on-one arguments are treated in the same way as combat skills are treated in the UFC, as a pure skill, unrelated to the truth or falsehood (whatever that is) of the underlying message.

The CODA glossary is here:
http://4freedoms.com/group/argumentation/forum/topics/dialogue-analysis-glossary


Find more photos like this on The 4 Freedoms Library

  • "The strictly leveled playing field is not a level playing field  (it advantages thugs)" - Alan Lake
  • "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving. It may succeed by its resistance to current tendencies in slowing down undesirable developments, but, since it does not indicate another direction, it cannot prevent their continuance. It has, for this reason, invariably been the fate of conservatism to be dragged along a path not of its own choosing. The tug of war between conservatives and progressives can only affect the speed, not the direction, of contemporary developments." - Hayek, 1961

Related Sites:
http://www.ethicalsoc.org.uk
http://www.humanism.org.uk
http://www.iransecularsociety.com
http://www.secularism.org.uk

Discussion Forum

The Power Elite

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Antony on Friday. 444 Replies

Jordan Peterson: Top Articles

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Civic Nationalism v. Ethnic Nationalism

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Jun 12. 5 Replies

Scott Adams: Master Persuader Series

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake May 20. 3 Replies

The Left: their Motivations, and their Islamic Alliance

Started by Paul Austin Murphy. Last reply by Philip Smeeton May 10. 12 Replies

Failed Heroes of the Left: Che Guevara

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Nov 3, 2017. 10 Replies

Tommy Robinson - Interviews and Dialogue Analysis

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Oct 27, 2017. 16 Replies

Failed Heroes of the Left: Billy Bragg

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Kinana Oct 26, 2017. 1 Reply

4 Freedoms - Key Frameworks

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Oct 23, 2017. 6 Replies

How to Live as a Dissident

Started by Alan Lake Oct 14, 2017. 0 Replies

Failed Heroes of the Left: Linda Sarsour

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Sep 25, 2017. 8 Replies

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Comment by Indoeuropean on December 14, 2011 at 6:19

Good morning Alan. Well, fistly thank you for your answer, secondly here is my opinion about it:

(1) My point of view might sound Maoist, but it actually is Humanist. What does Humanism consist of? Well, basically of Psychology, which from Ancient Greece's Philosophers' Work means "The Science of Psyché (which means "Soul"). All in all, it is based on so called Philosophy ("Love for Wisedom"), WHICH takes into consideration mainly three things or facets: Brain/Rationality/Logics, Heart/Feeling(s)/Ethics, Action/Creativity/Beauty. Now: NOTHING can be (really) approached/adressed/faced/worked out/solved, without considering both of the above mentioned three (facets).

Self analisis, Self criticism, Self improvement is therefore FOR OUR OWN SAKE, both at very private and intimate level (proceeding colloquially or enciclopedically known as Psycho), and at a social/communitarian/public level.

And here I introduce/remember the true/original/ethimological meaning of Politics: coming from Ancient Greece's way of ruling the/a State (Community of beings), meaning "of the Citizen" ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=politic ). [It does have a sense, mentioning Ancient Greece here, because there is where Democracy itself, "popular Government" ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=democracy ) comes from].

Now, for instance, both you and me ARE CITIZENS. Both, for instance, you and me contribute to Politics. Politics IS THE PRODUCT OF (one's or a Group's/Community's) Education, Mindset, ... Psychology (see above), Phylosophy.

So called legal System, and Laws are, therefore, the product of Politics, of civil decision(s), coming from people's Soul(s) AND (for Souls, Politics and legal System) to be fully sensed and rightly directed, it/they must be based on the three (human/Humanist) tenets/principles [your most beloved Logics, my favourite Ethics, and "divinely" appreciated Aesthetics ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=aesthetic )].

AND about your Jimmy massacrating his wife, in my country when one criticizes another or something, the question is: "what pulpit does this come from?". And it does make sense: if you have, for instance, a Leftist asking others to be generous and to help poor, while this one (practically) is a so called Radical chic or a Bourgeois-Bohême, might you tell me how reliable his/her suggestions will sound the others? [I don't want here to get deeper into the Criticism of Arabo islamicity, from whom/what, but the same principle(s) applies/y there, too].

NOW we were talking about Arabo islamic Pedo"philia": I don't think that the West is a brilliant fighter against it. The Sexualisation of the kids and Pedopornography are spreading here: how do we expect to tell Arabo islamics to renounce to their Vices, since we (sigh!) do not renounce to ours?

You told me about your Jimmy massacrating his wife: either are you an angel, treating your partner as "the other half" of the apple you belong to, too, or your Criticism against him will sound, very honestly, ridiculous.

I'll be back on points 1. - 5., on:

Sharia Law code, different from Civil Code, brought in/to the West by Napoleon, whose Relations with UK (according to what I got to know) weren't excellent,

and the others. I just must go now.

I wish a brilliant day to everyone.

Comment by Alan Lake on December 14, 2011 at 2:13

(2) In my opinion, Religions are political Ideologies, notably when they are ethnicist/racialist. Now: almost every Religion is originally based on Ethnicism/Racialism, since every organised Religion does have a "Prophet", coming from a certain Country (then the holy Land), speaking a certain Language (then the holy Language), and animating a certain Community (then the holy Community). [If you have any example showing that I am wong, please let me/us know.] 

Indo, you must be a child of the seventies!  A word seems to mean what you want it to mean, and is not a formal definition accepted by the makers of encyclopedias.

When I say an ideology is political I mean it has at least 5 of the following.

  1. A legal code which covers all of societies cases like crime, marriage, probate, etc  (Sharia Law does that and more, it even tells you how to wipe your bottom).
  2. A system of governance, with a defined hierarchy, and relationships between different entitiies, eg between government, church and military (Islam has all that).
  3. A Command and Control system, so that groups of people can be mobilised into action, and has corresponding large buildings with all conventional facilities that this can be done from.  (They are called Mosques, and are totally different to Hindu and Buddhist temples, and Christian Churches).
  4. A system of financial management and control, like Capitalism, or, I don't know, Sharia Finance.
  5. A military theory, which dictates the general methods of war, and the policies or rules that guide them.  For example, we have our Geneva Convention on the rules of warfare.  Muslims have the 26 battles of Mohammed to take as examples, not to mention all the subsequent imperialistic genocides of North Africa, Persia, China, Anatolia, etc.
  6. A separate education system, which tightly inculcates the value system into the  newly born population.  This is something we are lacking, but the communists had it, and Muslims have their Madrasah.

On this scoring system, Islam scores 6/6 compared to our Secular Democracies 5/6, so you could say that Islam belief is even more of a political ideology than ours is.

Have a lovely day, Indo :-)))

Alan

Comment by Alan Lake on December 14, 2011 at 2:06

MUHAMMAD’S MILITARY CAREER (26 BATTLES)
1. WADDAN
2. SAFWAN
3. DUL-ASHIR
4. BADR
5. BANI SALIM
6. BANI QUAINUQA
7. SAWIQ
8. GHATFAN
9. BAHRAN
10. UHAD
11. HUMRA-UL-ASAD
12. BANU NUDAIR
13. DHATUR RIQA
14. BADRU-UKHRA
15. DUMATUL-JANDAL
16. BANU MUSTALEQ WITH HADRAT JAWRIYA
17. AHZAB
18. BANI QURAIZA
19. BANI LAHYAN
20. DHI QARD
21. KHAIBAR
22. WADIYUL-QURA AND TAIM
23. MECCA AND FALL OF MECCA
24. HUNAIN
25. GHAZWA
26. TABUK

http://www.islam.com/chronology.htm

Comment by Alan Lake on December 14, 2011 at 2:04

Dearest Indo,

(1) one cannot blame Arabo islamic Ethnicism and Ideology (because that's what it is), refusing to blame other Ethnicisms and Ideologies, BECAUSE there is an interaction between the former and the latters. Arabo islamists DO BLAME others, and Arabo islamicity itself do blame others, for several (mindless or mindful) reasons. We can't expect another to change, if there is no mutual Listening and (partial or full) Understanding, also known as Reciprocity.

I am not saying that we have to criticize ourselves, in order to encourage Arabo islamists only: I say that it is utmost necessary, that we criticize ourselves, in order to evolve, AND THAT'S FOR OURSELVES. [Arabo islamicity or Arabo islamists might follow.]

I agree completely with that last point, we should self-criticise ourselves, FOR OUR OWN SAKE.  (This is all sounding very Maoist, but never mind :-) )

But in your first point you try invoke the principle of reciprocity.  It doesn't appy here.  You are making a logical fallacy.  You can't do that. I will give another example.  Suppose I find that my neighbour Jim beats his wife up several times a week, as I can hear the screaming from my home and I see the bruises on her face the next day.  Well, then, on day she annoys me in Tesco, so I slap her about a bit.  When Jim challenges me I say "Well you do it, so what's wrong with it?"

As you see, its no good tying everything together in morality.  You need to separate things to establish clear cut principles.

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 13, 2011 at 18:36

Dearest Paul, thank you for caring about my opinion.

On the Clash, I actually have believed in it. But I now do not believe in it anymore.

Well: the so called Clash is so propagandistic as so called 2012 End of the World's Prophecy is. 

There definitely is a difference, a huge difference, between Hebrew judaism, Roman catholic christianism, Arabo islamism, Tibetan buddhism, Indian hinduism, Russian commun statism, Western liber capitalism, and so on, and each of them with their(s) Prophet(s) or charismatic Leader(s),

which cannot be denied and which has to be faced.

If you ask me whether Civilizations' (plural) Clashes (plural) exist, well, I guess they DID and they do. BUT: not that we have to put too much stress on one of them (in this case: on Arabo islamicity).

In support of this point of view of mine, I would like to say/remember that Arabo islamic/-ized people have been migrating to other countries (and notably to ours, Western countries) since many years ago: not that a Clash can occur. THEY know us (quite well: it is rather us who do not know them enough.

This will rather be a Shock of ours, once we get to know Arabo islamicity's tenets better: which means not Civilizations' Clash. This means ignorant/naïve people, who is us, aknowledging that others think different and live different:

but this does not concern Arabo islamicity and Arabo islamists only).

I'd rather call it (what's going to happen next, due to our WISE low Birth rate): Western Shock. Or Westerners waking up.

A totally different point of view on the whole matter.

Most light- and loveful regards.

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 13, 2011 at 18:18

Dearest Alan:

(1) one cannot blame Arabo islamic Ethnicism and Ideology (because that's what it is), refusing to blame other Ethnicisms and Ideologies, BECAUSE there is an interaction between the former and the latters. Arabo islamists DO BLAME others, and Arabo islamicity itself do blame others, for several (mindless or mindful) reasons. We can't expect another to change, if there is no mutual Listening and (partial or full) Understanding, also known as Reciprocity.

I am not saying that we have to criticize ourselves, in order to encourage Arabo islamists only: I say that it is utmost necessary, that we criticize ourselves, in order to evolve, AND THAT'S FOR OURSELVES. [Arabo islamicity or Arabo islamists might follow.]

(2) In my opinion, Religions are political Ideologies, notably when they are ethnicist/racialist. Now: almost every Religion is originally based on Ethnicism/Racialism, since every organised Religion does have a "Prophet", coming from a certain Country (then the holy Land), speaking a certain Language (then the holy Language), and animating a certain Community (then the holy Community). [If you have any example showing that I am wong, please let me/us know.] 

Light- and loveful regards.

Comment by Alan Lake on December 13, 2011 at 12:14
Dearest Indo,
I agree with Kinana's critique of your argument :-)
(1) you are doing a kind of ad hominem; its not logically necessary for others to perform an act, unless the possibility or impossibility of that act is under dispute.
Sine thats not the case here, all we are talking about is providing *encouragement* to Muslims by doing it ourselves. Well, encouragement is good, but its not logically necessary.
(2) I could hypothetically agree with you about treating all religions the same. But then, I'd classify Islam as a political ideology, so that point is not going to help you establish your viewpoint either!
Comment by Indoeuropean on December 13, 2011 at 6:40

While for Christianity (imported from the Middle East in the West, while in the West there was a florishing Civilization [*] which needed not Christianity, my opinion) here an enlightening article:

http://www.astrologycom.com/christmas.html

[*] From Stonehenge/ers (and other ancient advanced Civilizations, such as the Mesoamerican, the Egyptian, the Greek and Roman, the Indian, the Far eastern) to Humanism/ists (whose most famous representatives were to be found during VI century BC in Greece, China, India and Persia).

Not that Middle Eastern Culture and Civilization has to be thrown away, quite the opposite, but it must be contextualized and not supremacisized [which, in my opinion and by the way, could be a step towad the Dis arabo muhammadedan shariatic islamistization of the countries/World].

Tell me what do you think. Light love beauty ful day.

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 13, 2011 at 6:11

Dearest Paul, thank you for your question(s). After World War II (...), three ... political/religious/ideological areas has been created:

I. World based on free Economy, II. World based on Communism, III. World neutral, which meant, neither belonging to the I., nor to the II. World, and notably based on ... Religion.

 [Note that both of the three Worlds simply adopted a ... Policy, which me might summarize like that: Right, Left, Religion (...)].

Now, as you/me/we maybe know, Arabo islamicity is or was the most powerful religious Force within the III. World's countries (a list of them might be found seeking for Bandung Conference, 1955).

As you/me/we can imagine, in order to counter the Power of the other two Worlds (the I. and the II.) much power has been given to the Arabo islamic mouvement, by and within the III. World's countries. The consequences of that move or tactic, are still to be seen nowadays:

notably the creation of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference at international level, the Arab League (almost adhering to the Arabo islamic Belief or Policy), and all the Declarations and Resolutions (which exerce an impact at international level), which come from them.

As you/me/we see, Arabo islamicity, is not only a Religion, the way we are used to consider it, but it is a complete Policy, representing an entire World's area, opposed to some other World's ones.

Are you asking me whether those areas will ever peacefully live the ones with the others, and whether they will find common values to live with? This is the question.

Therefore I'm saying, that either everyone (every area) adopts Self criticism, and Changins, or you/me/we can't expect Self criticism and Changins from a single area (in this case, that dominated by - destructive - Arabo islamicity).

Now, you/me/we might know very well that Education is of foundamental importance for (positive, evolutive) Changing(s): most of the Arabo islamized, and/or III. World's countries, are still lacking of Education, therefore foundamentalist (political, religious) Ideologies have plenty of room for spreading.

As you/me/we maybe know, (year 2000), 10% of World's population belong 80% of World's Richness: as you/me/we know, there is a tight tie between one's life's standard/quality, priviledges (educational possibilities included) and one's Wealth.

Usually III. World's population belongs to the 90% which belongs the 20%: therefore, in order to fight Discrimination, people is likely to adopt (to stick to) - opposite - discriminating Ideologies.

Since Arabo islamicity is the discriminating Ideology which belongs to the III. World's area, which is (officially) meant to fight against social Discrimination (see 10% and 80%), here you/me/we have many people supporting it, and refusing to quite it. 

Well, I must go now, sorry. Lightful and loveful and beautiful day.

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 12, 2011 at 11:45

Dearest Kinana,

I think that you undervalue the Role of external Pressures, in encouraging one to change - or not change - his/her own Radicalism, Idealism or Ideologism, his/her own Policy.

It was like asking Rightists to be more social oriented, while considering of no importance for Leftists to become more economical oriented. As if there was no connection between the two arms of the Balance.

AND SINCE Arabo islamicity was born in the Middle East, the Nest of so called monotheistic Religions,

one cannot ignore its ... AND THEIR ... very nature, which is:

a TRIBAL, ethnic/racial nature, which is tightly tied to BLOOD.

Now, from this Blood Mentality (or bloody Mentality), impregnated with Pride and/or Proudness (no matter what for),

how do you (we or whoever else) expect that (ethnical/racial) Ideology to accept to modify itself,

in other words, it to recognize its own failure and/or inadequacy,

AND NOTABLY in front of OTHERS, which refuse Self criticism?

[I now have to go, but I'll be back on this, because, in my opinion, this is the Key of Changing or of Not changing (for Arabo islamicity and its Ummah, or its Ummah's Mindset).]

Have a light-, love- and beautiful day.

 

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Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom from Voter Importation
Immigration is allowed - except where that changes the political demography (this is electoral fraud)
4. SP Freedom from Debt
The Central Bank is allowed to create debt - except where that debt burden can pass across a generation (25 years).

An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

  • Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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