The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Fightback by Ideology, Dialogue & Constitution

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Fightback by Ideology, Dialogue & Constitution

Deals with ideological threats to our freedom and society.  

Analyses argument and rhetoric in all its forms: media interview, debate, and oratory.

Also considers fight back by fixing the 4 constitutional vulnerabilities as identified in the principles of 4F.

Members: 42
Latest Activity: yesterday

Key Info

Religious arguments go in the Theology Room, so all the rest (i.e. secular ones) come into this room. One-on-one arguments are treated in the same way as combat skills are treated in the UFC, as a pure skill, unrelated to the truth or falsehood (whatever that is) of the underlying message.

The CODA glossary is here:
http://4freedoms.com/group/argumentation/forum/topics/dialogue-analysis-glossary


Find more photos like this on The 4 Freedoms Library

  • "The strictly leveled playing field is not a level playing field  (it advantages thugs)" - Alan Lake
  • "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving. It may succeed by its resistance to current tendencies in slowing down undesirable developments, but, since it does not indicate another direction, it cannot prevent their continuance. It has, for this reason, invariably been the fate of conservatism to be dragged along a path not of its own choosing. The tug of war between conservatives and progressives can only affect the speed, not the direction, of contemporary developments." - Hayek, 1961

Related Sites:
http://www.ethicalsoc.org.uk
http://www.humanism.org.uk
http://www.iransecularsociety.com
http://www.secularism.org.uk

Discussion Forum

The Power Elite

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Joe on Thursday. 455 Replies

Failed Heroes of the Left: Linda Sarsour

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Oct 15. 9 Replies

Failed Heroes of the Left: Kathy Griffin

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Oct 12. 1 Reply

The Death of Democracy - collected articles

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Philip Smeeton Oct 9. 24 Replies

Terminal Societal Sickness

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Antony Oct 3. 32 Replies

Jordan Peterson: Top Articles

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Antony Aug 21. 26 Replies

Basic Political Principles.

Started by Philip Smeeton. Last reply by Alan Lake Aug 20. 6 Replies

Civic Nationalism v. Ethnic Nationalism

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Aug 20. 6 Replies

Comment Wall

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Comment by Joe on March 5, 2012 at 15:10
Comment by Alan Lake on February 8, 2012 at 6:35

Hi Antony, if you click on the top of the vid where the title is, it takes you to the full thing in Youtube.

Hi Joe, the video is badly behaved because, I think, you pasted the old Embed Code. You need to select New Embed Code in Youtube to get it behave properly, like this:  

Comment by Antony on February 8, 2012 at 6:26

Good vid Joe - any chance of a link as the right hand side is chopped off here ?!

Comment by Joe on February 7, 2012 at 23:57

Another elevator pitch.  

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 19, 2011 at 19:29

Hello Kinana, thank you for sharing your very sensitive thoughts.

***

Hello Paul, thank you for your detailed opinion about Religion and about our Culture.

In my opinion Religion becomes a political Belief as soon as it is structured in a Book, with Tenets that one has to learn and follow,

and therefore its Community HAS TO BE handled as we handle a political Party, and its complete Belief as we handle a political Ideology.

Muhammads and/or others are nothing but political/charismatic Leaders, and have to be treated all the same (exposed according to the historical Context, in which they lived and appeared).

Of course Believing or, better, Wondering IS a very human Condition (and it is great that it exists): but as Albert Einstein said, it the Mistery that county, not the Dogma (while present Religions ARE Dogmas).

As we all, each one of us, is different (to another), and we are facets of a/the same Reality (call it God, call it Creation, call it ... Mistery),

then there cannot be a singular "mono" Belief that suits everyone, all of us.

If, on the contrary, we believe that a single (so called) Revelation MUST suit everyone, then we will fall into the/a Totalitarianism. A political Totalitarianism.

If, on the other hand, we believe that a Religion can be sectarian, then we cannot ignore its Tenets, if they are of ethnical/racial Supremacism: in which case that Religion MUST BE considered a political Ideology, and notably, a political Party.

And therefore, it must be treated as we treat any other political Party.

Every charismatic Leader and/or Religion/Party MUST BE exposed to free critical Thinking.

(Then one is free to do like Kinana: watching the Sky and wondering about the lightful Stars hidden behind the obscure Clouds.)

***

Our Civilization IS NOT based on Judeo-christianity:

it is firstly based on ancient PAGAN Civilizations, such as the Greeks and the Romans, the Sumers and the Egyptians, the Chineses, and others, which were fully florishing far before (notably) Christianity started spreading

(why, how, what for? This must be exposed to critical Thinking).

Moreover, there are two kind of Christianity:

the Hebrew Judeo-christianity, and the Roman-christianity.

Not to mention that the Christ might be a Legend, a Myth, inspired by more ancient pagan Deities, based on astronomical Phenomenas, and later gaining a so called astrological Meaning.

All Religions are appearently based on those last principles, but the Dogmification of Religions made us unaware of them:

TURNING US into ignorant Beings,

who do not wonder anymore, watching the starry Sky with naked eyes(*),

but who blindly believe, unable to watch the starry Sky with unindoctrinated eyes(*).

[(*)Eyes are the mirror of the Soul/Psyché].

***

Now, back to our Arabo islamification of the world or Shari'atisation or Muhammadification of it,

and/or to our Mosesfication, and/or Jesusfication, and/or Krinshnafication, and/or Karlmarxisation, and/or (so on), of the world:

why not HISTORICALLY talking about them, contextualizing them, and discussing about them, BUT NOT ABOUT THEM only?

Which means, analizing them (which will be a News, since usually, up to now, "holy Prophets'" or "charismatic Leaders'" Criticism/Analisis has been forbidden),

and confronting them with other Thinkers (which will be a News, since usually, up to now, such Prophets/Leaders have been centralizer),

possibly lived in more recent times

and/or possibly being less ethnicist/racist/tribalist

(according to a more modern global Community, to which WE ALL belong)?

***

I don't know, what do you (and you all) think.

Thank you for the very kind wishes and I wish you and your loved ones all the best, and loveful and beautiful days and nights.

Comment by Kinana on December 17, 2011 at 23:37

Indo

I accept your kind greetings.  No offense meant or taken.  To see a starry night in the UK is all the more precious because of the persistence of clouds and interference from city lights; but I know the stars are there even when I cannot see them.

Regards

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 17, 2011 at 19:30

[About/against Circumcision I'd like to say that most beautiful Pamela Geller would be a very suitable Icon for Intactivism.]

Then: here a lovely book about so called 3 Middle Eastern monotheist Religions http://www.ferkelbuch.de/ , then choose "Read the Book", where you find

Den Text des Buches  können Sie sich hier [herunterladen]
(Download of the Text)
Zu den Illustrationen des Buches gelangen Sie [hier]

(Download the Images of the Text).

Sorry for those who might think that I am (too much) cheeky: I just want our societies to EVOLVE.

Loveful regards.

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 17, 2011 at 19:15

Dear Kinana, neither am I a dhimmi, nor am I a goym.

Now, you might be right when it comes to discuss a problem at a time,

but here it doesn't seem to be the case:

here it seems that (you) would refuse to talk about Circumcision and ritual Slaughtering,

which by the way DO BELONG to Shari'a law as well.

Now: neither want I to pay the Jiziah, nor want I to be treated like a dirty being,

just because I dare to criticize something or someone, that/who refuses to be criticized,

and/or worst, just because I do not belong to the elected Caste.

Now, since this thing about the Caste [or Class], and/or the Race [ethnic Belonging], and or the Criticism Aboveness [being above Criticism],

does concern Shari'a law, Arabo islamism and/or Shariophilia or Arabo islamophilia (as well),

I see no ground to try and criticize such "qualities" (when they belong to Arabo islamicity and/or Shari'a) only,

and to forbid Criticism of "them" (when they belong to another/others).

Here from the Bible  http://www.truthbeknown.com/judaismquotes.htm and here from the Quran http://www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm [though there are many other sites where this last one is exposed].

Now, the only way to fight against Shari'a law (such as it is), it is to scientifically and historically approach Arabo islamicity, and the Quran, as well as Muhammad.

Ali Sina "Psychobiography of AlLah's Prophet" tried to do so (with Muhammad), while dr. Sami AlDeeb tried to do so (with the Quran), and people such as M.A. Khan or John J. O'Neill or even Fjordman (see Islam-Watch dot Org) tried to do so (with Arabo islamicity):

you/me/we can debunk Arabo islamicity and its tenets, just if we can deprive it/them from its/their ALLEGED Holiness.

This, of course, cannot be done unless we (we) deprive any other thing (or Ideology, be it political, religious, mono-/polytheist or atheist) from it

[Holiness, a.k.a. Untouchability (weirdly enough, Indian hindu untouchables are considered the most unholy within their Community.].

No Kinana:

if you ask me (neither a dhimmi nor a dhimmifier), I think not that it is possible to debunk Arabo islamicity and its Shari'a,

unless we agree to debunk any [essentially(*)] similar political asset.

(*)related to the Essence, which has qualities, represent a Vice or a Virtue, but do not specifically belong to someone only.

In my opinion we must debunk Vices: and if Arabo islamicity and Shari'a is/are full of them, well,

debunking the formers, the latter(s) will be automatically debunked.

If I offended you, I am very sorry. Have a starry night. Kindest regards (in case you'd like to accept them).

Comment by Kinana on December 17, 2011 at 17:07

Indo,

I continue to disagree with you.  No I do not think I am obliged to spend my time criticising the West when the West is under siege by Islam which seeks to make all non-Muslims 'pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.' (Quran 9:29)  The option presented to non-Muslims is slavery or War.

Do I think the West is perfect? No.  There, I have criticised the West!  But the West will be defeated unless it learns about Islam and responds accordingly, which it is largely failing to do.  Time is running out. 

So I do not agree with you when you suggest a balanced criticism is required for my credibility or reliability.  That would be the case only for people who cannot or refuse to discuss one topic at a time -- People who do not want to focus on one problem at a time.  This approach means that any incremental understanding is impossible.  When you somehow equate Circumcision with Sharia law, saying that one cannot be criticised without criticising the other, I am almost speechless!  The same is often stated about halal and kosher food.  The refusal to make distinctions and to discriminate is a refusal to face reality, imo.

It makes no sense to me to say, as you imply, different topics must be discussed all together all the time or nothing reliable will come from it.  The discussion then becomes one big go around and back-and-forth of: ‘well what about such and such…’  I have had many discussions with dhimmis who refuse to deal with any criticism of Islamic theology or practice unless we also talk about and solve other theologies and all of human history.  It is a way of avoiding unpleasant discussions and also, for many, there is the unstated assumption that all beliefs are basically the same and one does not really have the right to criticize another.

Finally, thanks for the links to the Ibn Warraq book.  All his stuff is worth reading.

Regards

Comment by Indoeuropean on December 17, 2011 at 9:07

Thank you dearest Heather, and thank you dearest Paul.

Now, I just found such videos, which show (us) what kind of discriminating, and racist propaganda, is (since long time ago) spreading within the Arabo islamic and/or ARABO ISLAMIZED world:

here about WESTERN women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN2WLImDoNo&feature=related 

and here about BLUE EYED BLOND HAIRED boys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s9iePMmw94&feature=related .

Now, Arabo islamist do take profit from our Culture and countries (see notably Arabo islamic Migration to us and the benefits they take from our social Welfare system),

but still they are insulting us, and this is the way they promote their political (hidden behind the word "religious") agenda.

Now, for instance, if we decide to criticize them (and we absolutely have to), we must criticize ourselves as well:

(1) which (Dis)Education do we give to our daughters [I belonged to them]?

(2) which kind of religious (branwashing/-polluting) propaganda do we spread or spread not (we might check it out during these so called "Christmas" days)?

(1)(2) what do we teach to our children [we belonged to them] about Morality and/or Ethics (bigot Morality IS NOT the same as human/Humanist Ethics. The former has to be reformed, the latter has to be improved and spread)?

ARABO ISLAMISM FINDS FERTILE FREE GROUND [*] THERE, WHERE WE FAIL TO CULTIVATE IT, OR WHERE WE INADEQUATELY CULTIVATE IT.

[*] where to plant their own brainwashing/-polluting religious and/or political propagandist Ideology.

Lightful, loveful and beautiful white/snowy sunshining "Yule" or "Saturnalia" or "Wintersolstice" days to you 2, and to your loved ones, and to everyone.

 

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Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom from Voter Importation
Immigration is allowed - except where that changes the political demography (this is electoral fraud)
4. SP Freedom from Debt
The Central Bank is allowed to create debt - except where that debt burden can pass across a generation (25 years).

An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

  • Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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