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It takes a nation to protect the nation

Well i just thought id have a go back after all respect is reciprocal and should never be taken for granted.

For those 4freedoms guys and gals out there who i have worked with whos opinions actually matter, whos input has been good for the EDL movement i do appreciate your efforts and hope to continue working with you in the future.

For those who wished to change the EDL's direction and objectives i can only say how sad i am as your unrelenting and "odious" agendas were only about self gratification, contortion of a workable strategy, plain intellectual snobbery and sheer ignorance.

NOT GOOD FOR ANY CAUSE!!!!

Wishing all those who are desperately in need of an epiphany to step into the light of the real world and see the error of their "fundamental" flaws, and to change accordingly.

May the gates of IJTIHAD be open!

Thank you. 

Views: 241

Replies to This Discussion

nice one mate.could`nt have put it better myself.no surrender.
I'm not real sure what your point is, insulting people who basically support you.

The truth is:
The EDL hasn't really achieved anything with regard to Islam. Muslim immigration continues unabated. Mosque construction continues unabated. Al Qaeda linked extremists are still living free in London and running their mouths at will. Muslim women continue to wear burkhas however and wherever they please. Muslim no-go zones continue to be no-go zones. The government hasn't done a thing in response to to EDL pressure.

The EDL has done some fairly large demonstrations, and they deserve a lot of credit for that, but let's face it: those demonstrations have had no effect whatsoever on Islamization in the UK.

Yes, a certain degree of awareness has been raised, but not much. Education and communication with the public aren't the EDL's strong suit. Look at the latest demo. What message are these people communicating to the public regarding Islam?


None that I can detect. Pointing that out isn't an "attack" on the EDL. It's constructive criticism. It's stating the truth, and saying what needs to be said.

99.99999% of the British public hasn't been on an EDL demo, but according to the EDL, people who don't go on demos are nothing but targets for insults and contempt. Why should people who are very sympathetic to your cause continue to support you, considering that you constantly attack and insult them?

There are many smart people who can't/don't go to EDL demos, but strongly support the EDL. Why not just listen to their suggestions and treat those people with a little respect? You don't have to follow what they say. But some of their ideas may be good! It just seems very counterproductive to insult people and tell them to shut up, simply because they don't go to demos. That just alienates good supporters, and makes them want to fire back at you.
John Carlson said:
I'm not real sure what your point is, insulting people who basically support you.

The truth is:
The EDL hasn't really achieved anything with regard to Islam. Muslim immigration continues unabated. Mosque construction continues unabated. Al Qaeda linked extremists are still living free in London and running their mouths at will. Muslim women continue to wear burkhas however and wherever they please. Muslim no-go zones continue to be no-go zones. The government hasn't done a thing in response to to EDL pressure.

The EDL has done some fairly large demonstrations, and they deserve a lot of credit for that, but let's face it: those demonstrations have had no effect whatsoever on Islamization in the UK.

Yes, a certain degree of awareness has been raised, but not much. Education and communication with the public aren't the EDL's strong suit. Look at the latest demo. What message are these people communicating to the public regarding Islam?


None that I can detect. Pointing that out isn't an "attack" on the EDL. It's constructive criticism. It's stating the truth, and saying what needs to be said.

99.99999% of the British public hasn't been on an EDL demo, but according to the EDL, people who don't go on demos are nothing but targets for insults and contempt. Why should people who are very sympathetic to your cause continue to support you, considering that you constantly attack and insult them?

There are many smart people who can't/don't go to EDL demos, but strongly support the EDL. Why not just listen to their suggestions and treat those people with a little respect? You don't have to follow what they say. But some of their ideas may be good! It just seems very counterproductive to insult people and tell them to shut up, simply because they don't go to demos. That just alienates good supporters, and makes them want to fire back at you.


John thank you so much for you eloquent and supportive post. Let me just take time to pick through your points.....

Quoting your very kind self here....

"I'm not real sure what your point is, insulting people who basically support you."

Now either your English comprehension is left somewhat wanting, or you have just skipped over my comments (more likely) and come to a very unsound conclusion. Why is that you may ask? Because you have judged my comments as an attack on ALL 4freedoms users and that simply isnt true, i am very specific in the targeting of the hostile, mentally disturbed, severely infatuated reprobates who have some form of "grandiose disorder" which is blatantly highlighted with their inane postings and off topic ramblings.

Now back to your "truth" posting.....

Muslim immigration continues unabated because Labour are in power they will hardly want to upset the Muslim vote they so heavily rely on, even more so with the run up to the general election. Mosque construction continues unabated because we dont have the "legal" power to stop them from being built, are you suggesting the EDL knowingly break the law to stop mosque building? Al Qaeda extremists are living in London sure, so again what do you suggest? Do you want the EDL to become a militant wing, a reactionary force to "deal" with those scumbags, if your suggesting that then you are setting up the EDL to become a banned group (like islam4uk) and thats just plain retarded. Muslim extremists will always run their mouths off, i for one dont wish to stop their from their vile intolerant diatribe, freedom of speech is sacred even if it offends, i want them to keep showing themselves up as 7th century cave dwelling Arab barbarians whos opinions are completely at odds with a secular populace, give em enough rope and they hang themselves believe me.
Muslim women continue to wear burkahs because they continue to be oppressed (for the most part, obviously some think its just great being covered in a bodybag but thats a different discussion completely) and again our government dont want to upset their muslim voters so near a general election, do you want the EDL to physically remove burkhas? Due to EDL pressure political parties over here are already calling for the banning of the burkha and niqab, undoubtedly this is progress even if people are using these issues as "political soundbytes".
I believe you meant to say "Non muslim no-go zones continue to be no-go zones" and that is also true but again what do you want the EDL to do exactly? Do you want us to storm muslim areas and "cleanse" them?

The thing is John the EDL is a "grass roots social movement" to put pressure on political parties on issues regarding Islamism. What you are asking for (it would seem) is a street army to go round and wipe the muslim populace out once and for all, or at the very least you asking for a "cull" of a certain brand of muslim. In case you hadnt already guessed the EDL wish to stay within the boundaries of the rule of law, doing anything contrary to that would lead to many arrests and a banning of our movement altogether. We dont want that because that plays right into the hands of Islamist scum, we as a movement gone, members arrested and then what? The situation would be fantastic for the jihadist in our midst and the so called moderates who want to implement a draconian and totalitarian political system, with the EDL removed they have paved the way for bringing Great Britain into the Dar Al Islam and i for one do not want to live under dhimmitude. I would sooner die. I think you and many others here fail miserably to see the bigger picture and fail to understand "rules of engagement" that WILL overcome the Islamisation of our country.

"Yes, a certain degree of awareness has been raised, but not much. Education and communication with the public aren't the EDL's strong suit"

I would agree with that statement in part John. Awareness has been raised but that depends on what you are talking about, the EDL are VERY well known both nationally and internationally, however the threat of Islamism is not in my opinion. Education and communication with the public is something the EDL is aware of and hopes to/needs to improve on, this will happen sooner rather than later. The officiating of a media department is just a start in the right direction.

As for looking at your link let me point out some facts about it shall i......

1) The uploader of this video uses "erroneous" sources to state as fact let me enlighten you by quoting just one excerpt....

"Within minutes of the 500-strong protest tried to breach police lines and the scene quickly deteriorated into heavy violence. 17 people have so far been arrested."

That trouble was during the final throws of the Stoke demo (i was there) so the "within minutes" quote is sheer fallacy. As is the "500 strong" protest there were thousands not hundreds of demonstrators there. Please take a huge pinch of salt when you read or watch vids that quote far left media such as workers liberty, indymedia and libcom. ALL these sources are communist driven rubbish/propaganda hell bent on destroying us.

2) The video uploaders channel you refer to claims to be an Albanian mafioso who calls for the spreading of "Albanianism", the communist connotations are there for all to see.

3) Odiously the video was recorded by an American lad who just so happens to be a radio presenter, his name is Jason Parkinson and he works for power92.3 you can find him here http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonparkinson1 and here http://jasonparkinson.com/jasontv.html From what i can see hes a bit of a cock.

Now if you want to use utter biased rubbish and left propaganda to critique the EDL movement then i dont know what else to say to you. Sure there were problems at the Stoke demo but no where near as bad as what is made out in that sensationalist video, gather facts before you fling mud my friend. People who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

Further quoting your words....

"but according to the EDL, people who don't go on demos are nothing but targets for insults and contempt"

Ok since when has the EDL come out and said that???? News to me that is John. The EDL leadership have NEVER come out and criticised those who support us who are unable one way or another to attend demos. Help comes in many different forms and the EDL recognise this, if certain people state otherwise then they are not toeing the EDL line.

"Why should people who are very sympathetic to your cause continue to support you, considering that you constantly attack and insult them?"

We constantly attack them? Why is that then? Lets just say one or more of your 4freedoms members are condacending, rude, abrasive, and ignorant to events and facts while purporting to be a "know all", such pompous effluent deserves to be attacked and i wont apologise for that.

"There are many smart people who can't/don't go to EDL demos, but strongly support the EDL. Why not just listen to their suggestions and treat those people with a little respect?"

People are listened to but respect is reciprocal so there is no need to play the Islamist tact of "we are the victims here" its very unbecoming of an alleged counter jihadist. People reap what they sow John and if 4freedoms members arnt grown up enough to realise that then best of luck to you all!

In short the EDL is a rough diamond, we dont want to alienate people because they are not able to eloquently communicate their thoughts, we dont want snobby know it alls thinking they know exactly what happened on the ground at demos when they wernt even there! This is where fair critique and satirizing of "non attending" members comes into play.

And finally just to re-iterate......

This thread is ONLY for those who deserve it :)
hoppy said:
nice one mate.could`nt have put it better myself.no surrender.


Cheers Hoppy mate!

Did you see AgeOfEnlightenment here on this forum perchance?
Round of applause for Mr Nemesis please.

Very well said mate!
Thanks for the detailed response. It definitely helps to build understanding between 4F and EDL. Just one point I'll follow up on:

nemisis123456 said:
The thing is John the EDL is a "grass roots social movement" to put pressure on political parties on issues regarding Islamism. What you are asking for (it would seem) is a street army to go round and wipe the muslim populace out once and for all, or at the very least you asking for a "cull" of a certain brand of muslim.

I understand what the EDL is. My point is this: What good does it do to "stand up" to Islam, if it has no effect on the ongoing Islamization of the UK? What function does "standing up" to Islam serve, if muslim immigrants and burkhas and mosques and sharia courts and halal meat and no-go zones keep proliferating no matter how many times the EDL demonstrates?

I realize that's a hard question, but it gets right at the root of what the EDL represents. It's a question that the EDL has to answer. Otherwise its efforts will all be in vain. Islam in the UK will brush the EDL off like a fly and continue to spread like a cancer.

This is why it's important to be respectful, rather than contemptuous, of keyboard warriors. Some of the greatest generals in the world, like Ho Chi Min and Subutai, spent their whole careers doing nothing but sit on their ass and think. The EDL should welcome support and ideas from the broadest base possible, because there are a lot of smart people out there who don't necessarily attend demos. Welcome everyone into the big tent, rather than use terms like "armchair warrior" as a term of abuse (like Trevor and most of the EDL do). Strike an alliance with the armchair warriors rather than mocking them!

As I said, the EDL has done a series of fairly large demos and built up an organization from scratch. You guys deserve a ton of credit and support for that. But when it comes to actually making a dent in Islamization, you guys haven't achieved anything more than the keyboard warriors, at least not yet. Concrete effects of your demos have been pretty nonexistent. So a little more humility, and recognition of the enormity of the task you face, might be in order.

Bottom line: The EDL should be more open to and appreciative of support from all quarters, rather than be an insider group of demonstrators who mock everyone else as weaklings and couch potatoes. Have more humility. Try and be more welcoming and friendly to the public who supports you, or is trying to make up its mind. Do football teams mock their fans for not getting out on the field?
Thank you John for your measured response.

"What good does it do to "stand up" to Islam, if it has no effect on the ongoing Islamization of the UK?"

The good of it is plain and simple, on a street level Islamist scumbags are now loosing their empowerment, they KNOW they will be countered and their intolerance challenged. Your "perception" of no effect is by and large misplaced, there have been countless articles and media coverage about what we do, this in itself wakes up the masses to a very real and present threat. Our voices are heard, our actions say we mean buisness and the government (whoever they may be) will HAVE to address our concerns sooner or later.

Standing up to "Islamism" means standing up for decency. Standing up to "Islamism" means a public rejection of ancient barbaric theocracy which in turn exposes the hatred of those who seek to subjugate. This unites British tribalism (cant be understated) to focus on the threats we see today, the kind of threats we experience in everyday life.

Now bearing in mind that i am British, was born and bred in Britain, i have ideas that could facilitate the changes we are looking for in our society. Im not sure if you are British but if your not then i suggest you consider the social, economic and political spheres while fully understanding British rule of law. Once you have some grasp of these factors i would like to ask you (again may i add) HOW you would suggest we deal with.....

"muslim immigrants and burkhas and mosques and sharia courts and halal meat and no-go zones keep proliferating"

I ask this simply because you have made some critical points without actually expanding on them sufficiently enough to conclude ANY kind of workable strategy. Bear in mind Britain has different judicial systems, rules of law, socio political and economic systems in place, so its best not to compare with another country whos systems are very different to our own. Obviously im looking for "workable" stratagems for short and long term goals.

"Islam in the UK will brush the EDL off like a fly and continue to spread like a cancer."

Not a chance my friend far too many people have joined us, we will continue to grow, our voices wont be silenced until something is done about it by those in power.

"This is why it's important to be respectful, rather than contemptuous, of keyboard warriors. Some of the greatest generals in the world, like Ho Chi Min and Subutai, spent their whole careers doing nothing but sit on their ass and think."

As iv said before respect is reciprocal i need not parrot points iv made previously. Respected generals got off their backsides and earned the respect of men fighting for them, they lead by example with their own selflessness and bravery. If you or any other 4freedoms member would like to "think" of ways to channel their efforts positively into the EDL's cause (while keeping a much needed dose of reality) then maybe, just maybe you can gain the trust, respect and ears of EDL members.

"The EDL should welcome support and ideas from the broadest base possible, because there are a lot of smart people out there who don't necessarily attend demos. Welcome everyone into the big tent, rather than use terms like "armchair warrior" as a term of abuse (like Trevor and most of the EDL do). Strike an alliance with the armchair warriors rather than mocking them!"

Please stop with the overly sensitive nature of 4freedom members rejectionism. Feeling sorry for oneself doesnt get the job done. Again referring you to the "earning respect" argument on this repeated moot point. Alliances are forged with working partnerships and mutual interests, not with dissent, rebuke and self glorification. As the old saying goes "there is no i in team"

As for Trevor im with him 110%. You cite an example where hes challenging and satirizing comments left by Shiva, one of the most neurotic sociopaths iv ever come across on the internet. Any person with a forked acid tongue like hers should be dealt with contempt in my humble opinion.

Alliances can be made with "armchair warriors" just as long as the "armchair warriors" help the EDL rather than cause division or contort its workable strategy into something they see as fit.

"But when it comes to actually making a dent in Islamization, you guys haven't achieved anything more than the keyboard warriors, at least not yet"

Perhaps you would like to state what it is that "keyboard warriors" have achieved in comparison to the EDL's achievements thus far?

"Bottom line: The EDL should be more open to and appreciative of support from all quarters, rather than be an insider group of demonstrators who mock everyone else as weaklings and couch potatoes. Have more humility. Try and be more welcoming and friendly to the public who supports you, or is trying to make up its mind. Do football teams mock their fans for not getting out on the field?"

The EDL does appreciate support from all quarters regardless of what you "perceive" otherwise. Humility is something i strongly recommend you advise certain 4freedoms members, as one cant actually see ones face through ones nostrils!

And football teams can turn on their fans, that is if their fans are out of order and not actually supporting the cause, this has been documented many times from many quarters.

Thank you for your time again John.
In all fairness John, the EDL have only been around for about 10 months now, so it is a bit early to judge what they have achieved regarding islamization.

We must also be aware that most member of EDL thought that sharia was a spice that flavored curries.

nemisis123456

Well i just thought id have a go back after all respect is reciprocal and should never be taken for granted.

At least you will not be banned here, which is very common happening at EDL and UAF forums

For those 4freedoms guys and gals out there who i have worked with whos opinions actually matter, whos input has been good for the EDL movement i do appreciate your efforts and hope to continue working with you in the future.

Does EDL really appreciate the efforts that many at 4F have made

For those who wished to change the EDL's direction and objectives i can only say how sad i am as your unrelenting and "odious" agendas were only about self gratification, contortion of a workable strategy, plain intellectual snobbery and sheer ignorance.

So taking a hard line against Islamization is odious. Shutting and shouting down individuals who have experienced islam first hand, is the height plain intellectual snobbery and sheer ignorance, which you and AoE are the main culprits at EDL forum. My odious agenda is I do not want to see England go down the same path as Indonesia, which is happening, and will happen

NOT GOOD FOR ANY CAUSE!!!!

Wishing all those who are desperately in need of an epiphany to step into the light of the real world and see the error of their "fundamental" flaws, and to change accordingly.


So going out once a month on a piss up attacking police and members of the public is stepping into the light of the real world, ho ho, see you need to turn the lights on and see the "fundamental" flaws of EDL and change accordingly.

BTW, just because you go on a mass rampage once a month, doesnt stop you basically being a keyboard warrior no different to me or John Carlson

Now lets get to the nitty gritty, I would be quite willing to fly to England to take part in EDL,s demo, would you be just as willing to fly over to Indonesia to take part in an anti islam demo here

You are so tuff being a key anti-jihadi sitting in England, the question is would you be so brave if you where blogging out of Indonesia or any other islamic nation ? Some how I doubt it

May the gates of IJTIHAD be open!

What are you a moslem now ?

The following points are presented in order to clarify the purpose of ijtihad:

God is all-powerful, all-knowing.
God created laws for humankind and only God has the authority to do so.
God appointed messengers to convey the laws to humankind.
God appointed imams to guide humankind about the laws.

No wonder many at EDL think you are an infiltraitor
Ah Shiva i was wondering how long it would take you to remind us of the reasons why you were so well liked at the forum, the second sentence sums it up perfectly yet you were pretty slow off the mark this time.


"At least you will not be banned here, which is very common happening at EDL and UAF forums"

I gather that you are felling just a little bitter right now?

"Does EDL really appreciate the efforts that many at 4F have made"

Well for those 4F members who have made "POSITIVE" contributions to the cause then the answer is an overwhelming YES!!! There is no reason for anyone not to appreciate "POSITIVE" efforts made by anyone.

"So taking a hard line against Islamization is odious."

Not at all, your baiting is wasted on me Shiva. Your usual tact of putting words in other peoples mouths to argue a point is amusing to say the least. One could say its like having an argument while looking in the mirror.
Taking a hard line against Islamisation is justified, however trying to change the "rules of engagement" and turn the EDL into something that suits your agenda is not only selfish and ignorant, it is also repugnant and divicive.

NOT GOOD FOR ANY CAUSE!!!!

"Shutting and shouting down individuals who have experienced islam first hand, is the height plain intellectual snobbery and sheer ignorance, which you and AoE are the main culprits at EDL forum. My odious agenda is I do not want to see England go down the same path as Indonesia, which is happening, and will happen"

Dont do snobbery my dear, if you act like a pompous brat expect to given a taste of your own medicine, the irony here is that you dont like the taste and consequently resort to dummy spitting and tantrums. People have tried to give you a chance (myself included) and all you end up doing is pissing everyone off with your sociopathic and moribund rants. If i happen to have been a major source of upset for you all i can do is apologise. As for AoE has he been here at 4freedoms?
England wont go down the same path as Indoniesia the EDL wont let that happen. Why do you live in a country you hate, in a country whos people you hate, in a country whos main religion is one that you hate?

"So going out once a month on a piss up attacking police and members of the public is stepping into the light of the real world, ho ho, see you need to turn the lights on and see the "fundamental" flaws of EDL and change accordingly."

A sweeping generalisation that doesnt represent the majority, one of your many "fundamental flaws". You are just an agitator who relishes negative attention, bit like a naughty child on a wind up. The EDL is not afraid of fair critique but unabashed ignorance is fair game, when you opened your mouth at the EDL forum it was like open season.

"BTW, just because you go on a mass rampage once a month, doesnt stop you basically being a keyboard warrior no different to me or John Carlson"

Actually i do quite a lot so im a keyboard warrior who actually gets things done AND i get a job done on the ground at demos. What exactly have you achieved Shiva only your argument comes from a delusion of grandeur. Not the cornerstone of success by any means.

"Now lets get to the nitty gritty, I would be quite willing to fly to England to take part in EDL,s demo, would you be just as willing to fly over to Indonesia to take part in an anti islam demo here"

Ah yes the "nitty gritty", can you provide me with some evidence of an anti islam demo in the worlds largest muslim poulation please? Once provided we can discuss further.

"You are so tuff being a key anti-jihadi sitting in England, the question is would you be so brave if you where blogging out of Indonesia or any other islamic nation ? Some how I doubt it"

Well im not a soft lad so thanks for that recognition. You bravely blog from a muslim country that you hate, a country full of people you hate, a country whos religion you hate, from the privacy of the great indoors??? Surely it would be best you just left that country as its a MUSLIM country and will no doubt continue to be a MUSLIM country no matter how hard you try and make it otherwise? Sounds like your efforts are pissing in the wind Shiva!

"What are you a moslem now ?"

Obviously im a muslim shiva i have nothing but nice things to say about the Islamic faith as practiced in its 7th century context. I want Islam to dominate that why i joined the EDL!
Excuse the sarcasm but it was the only way i could respond to that RIDICULOUS statement!

May the gates of INDEPENDENT, reasoned thought open up a path for you to follow.

Even pre 14th century Islamic jurists could open their minds so whats your excuse????

"No wonder many at EDL think you are an infiltraitor"

People can think what they like Shiva, opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one! I work for the EDL not against it, so for anyone calling me such is met with humour and mockery :)

Thank you for your measured comments, im so glad we have had time to catch up and have a civil debate for a change.
nemisis123456 said:
Ah Shiva i was wondering how long it would take you to remind us of the reasons why you were so well liked at the forum, the second sentence sums it up perfectly yet you were pretty slow off the mark this time.

Slow of the mark, not really, I was waiting for a response from you from my last post on another thread

So here we go again

And so speaks nemisis123456 the guy who wanted to cosy up to British Muslims for Secular Democracy BMSD

Let us look who this twaddle merchant wanted EDL to cosy with.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

BMSD Chair

After Muslim terrorists last year murdered children and teachers at a middle school in Beslan, Russia, the British Muslim columnist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown had the audacity (and the freedom) to write: "Much as it infuriates my detractors, I can even make myself imagine the rage and mental state of young suicide bombers brutalized by political oppression." No matter that the "oppressors" were not the innocent school children that were butchered. Ms. Alibhai-Brown had no trouble pinning the atrocity on the victims.

And how about this

"How many Palestinian Anne Franks did the Israelis murder, maim or turn mad?"

Dr GhayasuddinSiddique

BMSD trustee

Head Muslim Parliament

Muslim Manifesto
The ideas in the The Muslim Manifesto: A Strategy for Survival[2] launched the Muslim Parliament. Authored primarily by Kalim Siddiqui, the Manifesto declared:

“It is a matter of deep regret that the Government, all political parties and the mass media in Britain are now engaged in a relentless campaign to reduce Muslim citizens of this country to the status of a disparaged and oppressed minority. We have no alternative but to resist this invidious campaign.”

The Muslim Manifesto made it clear that “Political and cultural subservience goes against their grain” because “at its inception Islam created a political platform from which Muslims were to launch themselves on a global role as founders of great states, empires and a world civilization and culture.”

Also Dr Ghayasuddin Siddique happens to be a key signatory to the UAF

I admit to not being an authority on anything British, but it is surprising that it took some-one the other side of the world to point out some nasty truths about BSMD, at the same time some who is supposed to be clued up on islam and resident in britain could not find out these facts! Shame on you

http://4freedoms.ning.com/xn/detail/3766518:Comment:16997

It seems you are the folks who are bitter, because your utter failure to find a moderate muslim, and when you found a group BMSD, you could not accept the fact you where wrong.

Like you I am born and bred in England, so I am very concerned with what is going on, there for I have made a point of keeping track very closely for the last several years, and names like Dr Ghayasuddin Siddique keep popping up.

Such as :-

Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, leader of the Muslim Parliament, welcomed C4’s decision to pull the programme as a “sensible stand”, but said they should have taken the decision themselves to pull the programme instead of being forced into it.

He added: “They have to go back again and see child abuse not particularly affecting one racial group, but as a much wider problem. To portray the Asian community in this way is totally misleading. As long as it is presented [fairly] I have no problem; children need to be protected.”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/08/uk-grooming-of-white-girls-for-se...

I was flamed by you and Freedomfries for suggesting it was a bad idea to deal with BMSD and the likes of Siddique. so by you supporting BMSD makes you irrelevant in my opinion.
nemisis123456 said:
HOW you would suggest we deal with.....
"muslim immigrants and burkhas and mosques and sharia courts and halal meat and no-go zones keep proliferating" I ask this simply because you have made some critical points without actually expanding on them sufficiently enough to conclude ANY kind of workable strategy.

As I said, that's a hard question that we're all going to be wrestling with for years/decades. But I personally would make two proposals:

1) Take a hard stand against immigration: If muslim immigration is allowed to continue, muslims will exert an ever greater pressure on democratic institutions, and any temporary gains made against them will simply be reversed as they grow in numbers. You can outlaw sharia courts, mosque construction and the burka now, but 10 or 15 years from now, they will have more political muscle, and will reestablish them.

I believe it's axiomatic: you can't defeat Islamization unless you stop muslim immigration. If your feet are getting wet, step one is to turn off the faucet. It may feel good to "stand up" to muslim extremists in the streets, but if you're not slowing muslim immigration, you're not standing up to them at all. While you're mobilizing 2000 people for a demo on Sunday afternoon, they're quietly mobilizing 1000 new muslim voters and agitators through immigration every day of the week.

Direct demonstrations against the relevant authorities, like the Ministry of Immigration are likely to be well received because substantial majorities of all categories of the British people favor massive cuts of >80% in current immigration levels.

2) Directly target muslim institutions: It seems to me that the EDL isn't achieving/communicating much regarding Islam by demonstrating in city centers. It would be more effective and newsworthy to directly target muslim institutions. For example, the EDL frequently speaks against Sharia law, so why not demonstrate in front of the headquarters of Sharia law in the UK today, the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal in Birmingham? Or the local Sharia courts which it administers? Or supermarkets/restaurant chains which sell unlabeled halal meat? Or the embassies of countries funding mosques in the UK? Or mosques themselves? Or the offices/conferences of anti-democratic organizations like Hizb-ur-Tahrir? Or no-go zones?

Now, that said, I'd like to turn it around and ask you the same question (if you don't mind): HOW do you suggest that the EDL can eventually stop muslim immigrants and burkhas and mosques and sharia courts and halal meat and no-go zones from proliferating? What are your workable short and long-range strategies?
Those are good suggestions John. I've often wondered why the EDL choose city centres to protest when there are far more worthy sites. Choosing the demo sites wisely is probably the most important change the EDL could make. Ditch the city centres, start targeting sites who are directly related to EDL cause. It's a no-brainer really.

The upcoming protest on March 5th in support of Geert Wilders may be a step in the right direction, but all EDL demos should target the enemy directly.

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Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom from Voter Importation
Immigration is allowed - except where that changes the political demography (this is electoral fraud)
4. SP Freedom from Debt
The Central Bank is allowed to create debt - except where that debt burden can pass across a generation (25 years).

An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

  • Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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