The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

After all the speculation that it was a neo-nazi who had been expelled from a nearby military base 4 years ago (talk about clutching at straws), it turns out it was a French muslim who'd been captured in Afghanistan before.  This is exactly the kind of thing that the TE-SAT 2011 report warned was a new vector for islamic terrorism in europe: europeans who've gone off to these islamic war zones and survived several months/years of military training, then returning to Europe and bringing the war here.

Whilst the BBC has been full of speculation about the killer being right-wing, and about Sarkozy rushing off to mosques to make sure that they were protected, plenty of things that were not being said suggested it was a muslim (the BBC kept reporting about CCTV showing his actions as a killer, showing he had a video camera attached to his chest etc).  No mention of course about whether or not he was a white man with blond hair, or with black hair and dark skin.

Now the news of his capture has broken, the BBC has been quiet on the entire topic for the last 40 minutes.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/france-islamic-supremacist-murder...

You can see below how the only left-wing site that is vaguely critical of islam reported on all this.  They jumped on the chance to use the photo from The Sun.  And only some hours later modified the title from: The Men They're Looking For.  Yet even after someone called Belinda pointed them to the TE-SAT report, there were still leftards assuming it had to be a neo-nazi who did the attack on the jewish children.

These people who run Harry's Place are pretty well-informed about the various "islamists" and their organisations.  Yet they betray their underlying prejudices.

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/03/20/the-men-theyre-looking-for/

The Men They’re (Not Now) Looking For

The Sun has a photo of three men who they say the police are hunting, in connection with the massacre of Jewish children and three French soldiers of Caribbean and North African heritage.

These three soldiers were cashiered from the 17th Parachute Engineer Regiment in 2008, when this picture came to light.

The soldiers who have been murdered are also from the 17th Parachute Engineer Regiment.

UPDATE

The BBC now reports:

Three soldiers expelled from the army in 2008 for neo-Nazi activities have now been cleared of any involvement in the shootings. The three were members of the same parachute regiment in Montauban as the soldiers killed in the attacks on 11 and 15 March.

Earlier, Mr Gueant said inquiries had taken place “regarding soldiers who were kicked out of the army and who might want to seek revenge”

Comments

idler    
  20 March 2012, 1:56 pm

If it’s them, then one must be a DNA guru as the soldiers of “North African heritage” looked as French as any other Frenchman I’ve seen recently.

j.r.    
  20 March 2012, 2:03 pm

Presumably they may have known the victims personally then.

alfie    
  20 March 2012, 2:04 pm

Its all Sarkozy’s fault.

In all seriousness, this sends a chill down my spine. I just about remember the tail end of the NF’s heyday and can remember seeing skinheads giving Nazi salutes in front of me and my dad in Coventry and remember the swastika / NF graffiti.

There is a tendency to laugh them off, but this virus will never go away completely, and all it takes is a loaded gun to end the world for innocent children, women and men.

(of course we should never overstate them – they are miniscule and defeated, but still, in modern times, the damage an individual or small cell can do)

Max G    
  20 March 2012, 2:09 pm

In Jan 2009 arsonists rammed a synogogue in Toulouse with two cars packed with petrol bombs; the building caught fire but the Jews escaped unharmed.
.
Leila Shahid the Palestinian envoy to the EU said : “Look at the awful
incident in Toulouse with the car rammed into a place of worship,
which is unacceptable, but a result of images from Gaza.”

Dominique Sopo, the head of SOS Racisme, France’s main anti-racist
movement, said : “it is most likely that the crime is linked to the situation
in the Gaza Strip.”

Interesting?

Anne On    
  20 March 2012, 2:42 pm

Pleasant looking chaps.

joe millis    
  20 March 2012, 3:15 pm

Just like the EDL. But with guns

Savely    
  20 March 2012, 3:21 pm

It is now being reported that all three were cleared of charges by the French police.

DocMartyn    
  20 March 2012, 3:24 pm

They have the Flag upside down and back to front, the Maltese Cross is supposed to go in the top left corner.
Morons.

Josh Scholar    
  20 March 2012, 3:42 pm

They have the Flag upside down and back to front, the Maltese Cross is supposed to go in the top left corner.
Morons.

Someone should do a study where racists are given IQ tests then overlay their stunted results on their holy bell-curve.

Jon.    
  20 March 2012, 3:46 pm
Alec    
  20 March 2012, 3:54 pm

Alan’ll change the title piece.

~alec

Anne    
  20 March 2012, 3:58 pm

We shall see.

One of them has already been questioned – he turned up at the police station himself
Latest word from French police is that they are beginning to discount this hypothesis. We just don’t know

Abu Faris    
  20 March 2012, 3:59 pm

Good for Alan A putting up their faces. Welcome to the wonderful world of the French military. And one wonders why people think they are disgusting cowards.

Abu Faris    
  20 March 2012, 4:00 pm

Allonzi – les peuples. C’est non… eh?

KB Player    
  20 March 2012, 4:15 pm

The Sun loves putting up pictures of people before they have even been charged, let alone tried and convicted. That’s something that’s been brought out by the Leveson inquiry.

Why on earth should HP follow the Sun in this, or any other respect?

Quiet_Man    
  20 March 2012, 4:18 pm

Queue massive attempts alá Breivik to link these men to the EDL.

alfie    
  20 March 2012, 4:50 pm

Well, they’re still *%#@s!

Niels Christensen    
  20 March 2012, 4:53 pm

From an objective point of view there are only two leads in the investigation : the murder of the first soldier in civil clothes, the killer must have known he was a soldier, and the weapon, which isn’t a typically mass murder/terrorist first weapon of choice nowadays.
Everything else is political fantasies.

belinda    
  20 March 2012, 4:55 pm

The Europol TE-SAT reports show that right-wing terrorism in Europe is basically statistical noise. 99% of all terrorism in Europe is accounted for by the left-wing (including ethno-nationalists, supported by people like Ken Livingstone & Jeremy Corbyn etc., and animal libbers), and muslims.

Moobs    
  20 March 2012, 4:58 pm

I know this is going to seem naive but …

I’ve never been able to resolve the dissonance that arises from hyper-patriotism leading to an admiration and apparent allegiance to an expansionist enemy political movement.

Put another way, if you are super-proud of being French why on earth would you be saluting a German flag when the Germans have repeatedly tried to subjugate France?

Sarka    
  20 March 2012, 5:08 pm

KBPlayer
I rather agree with you. But oh well, trust the Sun to boob…To the trained eye these chaps are clearly not serious neo-nazi thugs, but innocent LSE students having fun on a ski trip.

Max G    
  20 March 2012, 5:26 pm

So are the French police now looking for Nazis or others who might be upset by Israel’s actions in Gaza?

PJH    
  20 March 2012, 5:38 pm

“Just like the EDL. But with guns…”

…swastika flag, nazi salutes and military gear.

(Spare me the links to photo-shopped images, Welsh neo-Nazis and that one NF twat in the green bomber jacket.)

hasan prishtina    
  20 March 2012, 5:43 pm

The Europol TE-SAT reports show that right-wing terrorism in Europe is basically statistical noise. 99% of all terrorism in Europe is accounted for by the left-wing (including ethno-nationalists, supported by people like Ken Livingstone & Jeremy Corbyn etc., and animal libbers), and muslims.

Or to put that into real figures:

Failed, foiled and completed attacks 2010

Separatist 64.3%
Left-wing 18.1%
Not specified 16.1%
Islamist 1.2%
Single issue 0.3%
Right-wing 0

Source: TE-SAT 2011

Interesting that while right-wing terrorism and animal liberationists can be described as statistical noise, Islamist terrorism is a much smaller threat that the ‘counterjihadist’ movement would have us believe.

Queue massive attempts alá Breivik to link these men to the EDL

1) These men have been eliminated from the investigations
2) Breivik was one of the 100,000-odd who pressed ‘like’ on the EDL’s Facebook page at the time when the EDL was using this as its method of counting its number of supporters. There is no evidence that these men did so
3) Breivik travelled to England to demonstrate with the EDL – there is no evidence to link these men to EDL demonstrations
4) Breivik had 150-odd Facebook friends in common with the EDL – there is no evidence to suggest that these men have been communicating with EDL members

Phil    
  20 March 2012, 6:01 pm

The flag is a Third Reich naval ensign which would have hung off the stern or mast of a ship, and as DocMartyn has pointed out it is upside down.

Max G    
  20 March 2012, 6:23 pm

Hasan,
Do you have any figures for those who have been found guilty of attacks on French Jews/cemeteries/synogogues? I wonder what % of attacks lead to prosecutions. My guess is that the numbers are very small.

blah blah    
  20 March 2012, 6:40 pm

“Interesting that while right-wing terrorism and animal liberationists can be described as statistical noise, Islamist terrorism is a much smaller threat that the ‘counterjihadist’ movement would have us believe.”

Most people do not associate the left-wing with terrorism. And blogs like HP are very keen to jump on the idea that the current attacks in France are “neo-nazi”, when the evidence not just of the 2011 TE-SAT but earlier reports show that right-wing terrorism is basically non-existent.

You ignore what the rest of the 2011 report says.
“The number of Islamist terrorist attacks actually carried out in the EU was limited to three attacks in 2010. They caused minimal damage to the intended targets. Potentially, however, at least two of these attacks could have caused mass casualties and multiple fatalities… In many Member States there is evidence of the existence of well-organised recruitment and logistical support networks. Volunteers are recruited in the EU to support Islamist terrorist activities in Afghanistan, Pakistan,the Northern Caucasus, Somalia and Yemen, to mention the most important conflict zones… Of ongoing concern is the number of predominantly young EU nationals travelling to conflict areas that include the Afghan/Pakistani border, Somalia andYemen, with the intent to take part in armed combat or join training camps. Those individuals pose a serious risk, because of the contacts, skills and modi operandi used in combat zones and the potential intent to apply these on EU soil.”

There is no cause for complacency. MI5 state that there are currently more than 230 muslim terrorists in prison in Britain. Most of these terrorists will be out of prison in the next decade.

http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/terrorism/forum/topics/mi5-s-list-o...

Max G    
  20 March 2012, 6:56 pm

It seems that although there have been many antisemitic attacks in France over the last decade, very few people have been prosecuted for them. Perhaps the French state has not taken the threats to Jews seriously enough? If that is the case, then it might be that France and its’ Jewish population have
an insurmountable problem on their hands.

alfie    
  20 March 2012, 7:20 pm

Just went on the Fiachra Gibbons article to look at the comments at random. One of the first ones I saw – (paraphrase) ‘is it a coincidence that the killer on a motorbike drive by used the same method as the killers of the Iranian scientists’

Yep its the Zionists!

Alec    
  20 March 2012, 7:55 pm

To the trained eye these chaps are clearly not serious neo-nazi thugs, but innocent LSE students having fun on a ski trip.

~*wipes coffee from screen*~

~alec

hasan prishtina    
  20 March 2012, 8:19 pm

Do you have any figures for those who have been found guilty of attacks on French Jews/cemeteries/synogogues? I wonder what % of attacks lead to prosecutions

The issue was on the data produced by Interpol in the TE-SAT reports which do not mention whether or not the attacks mentioned led to separate prosecutions (They set out conviction rates elsewhere, but it is impossible from the report to determine which cases led to trial, conviction or acquittal) As for France, there were 389 victims of antisemitic attacks in 2011.

http://www.crif.org/fr/lecrifenaction/rapport-sur-lantis%C3%A9mitis...

You can download the report from here.

Most people do not associate the left-wing with terrorism

In which case they are complacent fools who have taken leave of their senses. There is little mileage in using TE-SAT to claim that right-wing terrorism is non-existent when the very same reports show left-wing terrorism to be, after separatist actions, the largest terrorist threat in Europe.

You ignore what the rest of the 2011 report says

I don’t ignore anything, nor am I complacent about anything but, on the contrary, want more measures taken to protect the innocent public. I understand you feel the same about Islamic attacks, but I only wish I could believe that you were of the same opinion about the other 98.8% of terrorist attacks in Europe.

BTW, CRIF has an excellent website with some valuable resources, not only about antisemitism, with reports on Arab antisemitism, France and the FN, but also on the US, “anti-Zionism” and the case for Israel and lots on Jewish culture, history, literature and Judaism.

Max G    
  20 March 2012, 8:41 pm

Alfie,
Stormfront suggests that it was Mossad.

DocMartyn    
  20 March 2012, 8:50 pm

“Abu Faris
Good for Alan A putting up their faces. Welcome to the wonderful world of the French military”

Abu, I think you are slightly unfair here.
These men were dishonorably discharged from the French Army.
I understand that the French Military and the Police are taking steps to eliminate neo-Nazi’s from their ranks.

Abu Faris    
  21 March 2012, 12:16 am

Doc

Not in my experience are the French military trying very hard.

DocMartyn    
  21 March 2012, 2:45 am

Abu, the French military was until very recently a stand alone force, with a lot of grudges. After the Berlin wall fell they have begun to emulate other NATO structures and training, especially the German Army. All the people who were involved in the various North African wars have retired.

Max G    
  21 March 2012, 5:44 am

According to Reuters French police have shot a man with Al Qaeda links suspected of the killings.

reactionary cad    
  21 March 2012, 5:51 am

The guardian is saying that police have arrested a 24-year-old who has them he wanted to avenge the deaths of Palestinian children. He was described as a French national with an Algerian mother.

Max G    
  21 March 2012, 6:30 am

So what impact will the identity of the killer(s) have on the French election? Will this help Marine le Pen? It will be interesting to see how she responds and whether she tries to secure some sort of political advantage. Her father was quite antisemitic which is an ironic twist. Would he have recognized the French Jewish children as being French?

passer by    
  21 March 2012, 6:40 am

How very predictable that HP habit of jerking off over “the far right”, while in reality being very close to it ideologically itself should, again, be shown up for tge hollow joke sham that it is. Not nice to play lefty politics with the corpses of slain French children, not nice, HP, not nice at all

Niels Christensen    
  21 March 2012, 7:10 am

As I said before, there has been so many stupid uninformed speculations about who and why.
Now they have found the guy, and he is “Le tueur se revendique d’al-Qaïda”
http://www.francesoir.fr/actualite/faits-divers/tuerie-de-toulouse-...
He is a france algerian, who has been in camps in Afghanistan, did it because he would revenge the ‘children of Gaza’ and the french troops in Afghanistan.

Max G    
  21 March 2012, 7:15 am

Might be an idea to avoid pics from The Sun?

Balises : children, jews, leftards, neonazis, terrorism

Vues : 345

Réponses à cette discussion

This is really too depressing.  So, many (most?) of the muslims in France hate jews as much as Mohammed Merah?

the minute of silence observed in schools. There were some very aggressive reactions in some state schools where most of the students are Muslims, because it was a minute of silence related to what had happened in a Jewish school.

http://tundratabloids.com/2012/03/psychologist-explains-mental-trau...

 The press are still reporting merah as being a lone wolf. Al jazeera have been handed footage of the shooting and police are desperately hoping that merah sent the footage himself or the lone wolf theory will be hard to maintain. I should think everyone  'except the Scarecrow' thinks merah must have had help somewhere along the line. He traveled about, owned cars, had a cache of guns, and carried out some very effective shooting. 

 France is hoping this is a lone wolf operation other wise it may have to start thinking about its huge muslim population as a potential threat.  Then what they gonna do.

Films taken by Mohamed Merah, the Toulouse assassin, of his murders were received by the French offices of the al-Jazeera TV station yesterday and handed to the police, the newspaper Le Parisien reported last night.

The footage showing the seven killings, presumed to have been taken by a camera known to have been slung around the murderer's neck, has been authenticated by investigators, the newspaper said. The films arrived in a package which also included a letter purporting to come from al-Qa'ida. It carried a Wednesday postmark from Toulouse. Police were said to be unsure whether it was posted by Merah on Tuesday evening before the 32-hour siege which ended in his death or by an unknown accomplice afterwards.

It is understood that the TV station had no plans to show the films, which, according to police sources, contained jumbled footage from all the attacks, intercut with verses from the Koran and religious songs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/toulouse-gunman-sent...

Meanwhile, the Oxford professor and grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, insists that this massacre had nothing to do with islam.  Taqqiya much?

The plot thickens.

There is a claim that Merah was working undercover for the French security services.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4223564/GUNMAN-whose-7-vi...

That report supposes, that in putting Merah in contact with "fundamentalists", he became radicalized.  Equally, it could be seen in a wider context, as a case of blowback.

http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/french/forum/topics/merah-s-forsane...

It is interesting to note, that a 3 years before the London Tube bombings, French muslims were arrested in London in a plot to put cyanide gas on the Tube system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabah_Kadre  It may well have been that a conviction could not have been gained in 2002 under the existing anti-terrorist laws - these laws were changed in 2006, in the clear context of catching significantly more muslim terrorists.  

Kadre was convicted a couple of years later for the 2000 Strasbourg bomb plot.  And we act like all of this began on Sept 11 2001.  There was plenty of warning - the assassination of Rabbi Kahane should have been a warning, as should the overt warnings of the JDL.

Italian newspaper Il Foglio said Merah’s trip to Israel and Afghanistan in September 2010 was made with the knowledge of the French foreign secret service, the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure. However, London's Independent newspaper quoted a spokesman for the agency as dismissing that report as "grotesque".

Squarcini has since insisted Merah was not helping authorities, telling Liberation the gunman was not "an informer for the DCRI or any other French or foreign services."...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/toulouse-jew-killing-jihadist-may...

As if they would admit it if he was.  a) it compounds their incompetence, b) it would make other jihadist groups more wary.

Merah had at least one (and possibly 2 or more) accomplices.  He claims it's Al Qaeda; Al Qaeda claim he's working for them.  The utterly undistinguished former-schoolteacher now professor Taqqiya Ramadan says that Merah's massacre has nothing to do with islam.

Meanwhile, the French have arrested 19 "islamists".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9175297/Fra...

No, Prof. Taqqiya, it has nothing to do with islam.  Is there now a BA (Hons) Deception being taught at Oxford?

The critics of islam denounced the actions of the Uttoya assassin - yet still people have been hounded out of jobs, and been forced into hiding.  The supporters of islam are able to state their support in the actions of the Toulouse assassin - and there is not even a word of criticism against them.

Breivik killed his own kind, politicised young Nordics, and he was denounced.  Merah killed jewish children; and his community are proud of him.

Talk about double standards. I wouldn't like to be a jew in Europe.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/muslim-neighbors-of-toulouse-jiha...


Muslim neighbors of Toulouse jihad mass murderer: he was one of us

We have seen several reports about Muslim support for the Jew-killing jihad murderer Merah. We have not seen any reports about Muslims speaking out against him and against Islamic antisemitism in general. Yet the official government and media narrative is that only a tiny minority of extremist Muslims are violent, and most other Muslims abhor their actions. Stories like these show up the hollowness of that dogma.

"In Toulouse suburb, 'scooter killer' is 'one of us,'" by Nicholas Vinocur for Reuters, March 30:

(Reuters) - In the neighborhood where Mohamed Merah grew up, and was last seen joking with friends days after he had killed three French soldiers in a pair of shootings, the message to outsiders is clear: he was one of our own, no matter what he did.

The self-styled Islamist militanttore a wound in France's fragile sense of community when he gunned down the soldiers, sons of North African immigrant families like his own, and then a rabbi and three Jewish children - all in the name of al Qaeda.

For days, Toulouse lived in fear of the "scooter killer".

France reeled at the worst such attacks since a bombing campaign involving another young son of Algerian parents from another rough provincial suburb, Khaled Kelkal from Lyon, killed eight people in 1995. President Nicolas Sarkozy put his re-election campaign on hold to call for unity. Tens of thousands of people marched silently in memory of the victims.

But in Les Izards, the 1960s housing project where Merah, 23, felt most at home, the reaction to his rampage has been one of anxious defiance of outsiders trying to peer into what seems like a closed world, cut off from elegant downtown Toulouse by its poverty, by crime and, locals say, by racial discrimination.

"I'm going to tell you one thing: he was a kid from this neighborhood and we support his family no matter what people say on TV," said one middle-aged mother of Algerian origin who said she had known Merah when he was a child in Les Izards.

Typical of others in the area of low-rise blocks and tidy squares a 15-minute metro ride north of the city centre, she did not want to be named when speaking up for the man who was, briefly, public enemy No. 1: "He was one of ours," she said. "And we will never be sure of what really happened."...

Several residents of Les Izards, in illustrating that sense of confrontation with the French state, alleged that on the day Merah was killed, police cars drove through the neighborhood honking car horns in the manner of jubilant sports fans.

"If we don't want to produce more Mohamed Merahs," Makongo warned, "We are going to have to work a lot harder to reach these kids through dialogue - and find them jobs."

Yes, it is all our fault, and up to us to fix the problem. Islamic antisemitism? Pah!


Incidentally, Merah was not a "self-styled islamist"; the French security services had been involved with him for some time.  His entire family are islamists.  In time, no doubt we'll find out the details of his trips to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Israel -- all places where your average sun-seeking Frenchman goes on holiday.

I posted this story in the Jewish room, but I think it is so important it needs to be connected to these events.

http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/israel/forum/topics/france-muslim-a...

French Islamists seek to avenge Merah's death ; http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-04-06/France-Merah/54...

Mohammed Merah spent two months training in Pakistan.  So, just your common or garden muslim, then.

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/05/16/frances-islamist-powder-keg

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Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom of Movement
The government can import new voters - except where that changes the political demographics (i.e. electoral fraud by means of immigration)
4. SP Freedom from Over-spending
People should not be charged for government systems which they reject, and which give them no benefit. For example, the government cannot pass a debt burden across generations (25 years).
An additional Freedom from Religion is be deducible by equal application of law: "Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight - except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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