The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Tommy Robinson has just resigned from the English Defence League in order to join hands with the Muslim organisation Quilliam; a group which says that its primary aim is to "fight against extremism in the Muslim community". Another twelve senior EDL members including co-founder Kevin Carroll have also left.

Robinson has justified his decision by saying that he doesn't "want to lead a war against all Muslims". It was also partly explained by his fight against open Nazis within the movement, though not always strictly within the EDL itself. For example, according to the British National Party, Tommy Robinson's main problem is to see things in terms of Islam and the behaviour of Muslims (as Muslims) rather than in terms of race. On the BNP website it says:

"As genuine nationalists we have deep ideological differences with the EDL leaders who openly support the ethno-cultural genocide of the indigenous English through mass colonisation and multi-racialism."

First of all, a firm distinction must be made between Tommy Robinson's motives for joining hands with Quilliam (which will be honourable) and what he's actually doing. It may be that what he's doing is simply wrong or misguided even if he does think it will be beneficial in the long-term fight against Islamism and Islamisation of the UK. In addition, it may be said that the best way to fight the Nazis is surely to fight the Nazis rather than to join or link up with a Muslim organisation.

Regardless of whether or not Quilliam is genuinely moderate or "fighting against extremism", its members are not working with the EDL it's the other way around. Tommy is entering the lion's den, even if some of those lions may be friendly.

Quilliam could, at least in theory, run rings around Tommy; not because he is stupid, but simply because they are Muslims who have become experts in defending Islam. In other words, they may persuade Tommy that Islam itself has absolutely nothing at all to do with Islamism and Islamic terrorism, let alone with Muslim sexual grooming and increasing sharia law in the UK. Scholarship, or pseudo-scholarship and taqiyya (depending on how you look at things), may well pay dividends for Quilliam.

In Nicky Campbell's BBC interview with Tommy Robinson yesterday, Campbell talked about Quilliam's "Islamic scholars" in hushed and admiring tones as if he were talking about a great mystery or some holy persons. Everyone feels intimidated by scholars; and we are probably more intimidated by the term 'Islamic scholar'. But we shouldn't be: these people were Muslims before they were Islamic scholars and they remained Muslims through and after their scholarship. The scholarship itself was never even a tiny challenge to their faith. In fact it reinforced and strengthened their faith  that's what it's for. There are literally tens of thousands one on every street corner in some places of 'Islamic scholars' throughout the world who are often little more than automatons whose only skill is to memorise Islamic texts and the Islamic party line (as it were). This is something that Tommy Robinson should bear in mind when he has discussions with Quilliam.

 

The Muslim and Leftist Enemies of Quilliam

Quilliam may well be taqiyya supreme. Alternatively, it may be banging its head against an Islamic brick wall or trying to put moderate square shapes into immoderate round holes. Nonetheless, people must face the possibility that some Muslims are sincere in their moderation. If they don't, then they may well come across as bigots.

The problem is that moderate Muslims even if they exist in numbers are not winning out in the Muslim world or even here in the UK. On top of that, many officially moderate Muslims such as the BBC's Mo Ansar and Inayat Bunglawala (to name only two) are not actually moderate at all.

And there is another problem: the Quilliam Foundation is hated both by extreme Muslims and by those who claim to be moderate including, again, Mo Ansar and Inayat Bunglawala.

Quilliam is also under attack from the usual leftist suspects, such as the Stalinist fanatic Seamus Milne, the professional Islamophiles Jonathan Githens-Mazer and Robert Lambert, as well as the Islamo-Trotskyist Yvonne Ridley.

So Trotskyists, communists and progressives are just as against Quilliam as some in the counter-jihad movement are. Why? Because, as white middle-class leftists, they prefer their Muslims to be Islamists. After all, in their perverse world-view, Islamists are basically Trotskyists/ communists/ progressives with brown skin. And like them, they are out to destroy the West and capitalism. Thus this support of Islamist totalitarianism, from totalitarian leftists, is no surprise at all. These people believe that all non-Islamist Muslims are essentially 'Uncle Toms'; just as they once believed that black people who didn't like rap or support the Black Panthers were Uncle Toms.

Consequently, even if Quilliam is a moderate organisation, it will probably not win out in the end. Most Muslims hate it and only non-Muslims such as Tommy Robinson! seem to have any time for what it says and does. And that's precisely why most Muslims hate it. This means that Quilliam's battle against Islamic extremism may have been lost even before it began.

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Paul Austin Murphy said:

Nick Griffin praising Hezbollah. Now I wonder why that is????? -

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3787833.ece

Pam. you do not have to try and play games here, if you are going give a link, please do not link to pay to view site, I regard that as rather dishonest.

Now he  praised Hezbollah, because they helped the Assad regime recapture the rebel (Al Quadea) hels city of Qusayr.

Now, I have said quite clearly that I CONDITIONALLY supported BNP from about 2003 to 2009, and since then I have hardly looked at their site.

 I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Thanks to BNP I learnt a lot about islam.

"It might come as a revelation to you, but I know a number of jews in Britain who vote for the BNP, because their greatest fear is islam. And if they can vote for the BNP, why on earth should it not be the case that as islamisation increases, more and more people would disprove your naive view that the British working class would never vote for Nazis. It is truly naive of you to think that people will tell you they vote for a pariah party." - Joe

No surprise at all. Two of them I know personally. Jews have as much right as anyone to be Nazis. It would be racist to claim that ALL Jews were non-racist. Some Jews I know would vote BNP save for the fact that it hates the Jews.

And that is as wrong as non-Jews voting for the BNP because of the threat as Islam.

I never said that Brits would NEVER vote Nazi. I'm not a futorologist. I said that as things stand, they wouldn't. And I doubt that things will change that much in the next twenty years. 'Austerity' will not change that. The odd riot won't. And neither will Muslim grooming. But I don't know that. And I don't rely on theory to show that it will be otherwise.

You also seem to discount the non-Nazi right-wing middle-class. Will they go Nazi too - as on Martin Smith's subtle analysis? Not likely. In fact the combined efforts of the non-Leftist and non-Nazi working and middle classes will hopefully stop complete Islamisation. That's not happening now to a large extent but things are changing. And they are changing with virtually no help of the BNP. Things are moving slowly, even too slowly. But when they do change, I doubt it will have anything to do with the BNP or with Brits as a whole embracing Nazism.

"None of us here are advocating an alliance with the BNP, PAM.  If you bothered to read around the site to get to know us, you would be lucky to find 1 sentence in 10,000 that could be construed as such advocacy." - Joe

'Us'? I thought I'de only been debating with you and Shiva on this. Are you saying I should read the entire website before I contribute?   Do you all have the same views here on the BNP and on other things? I don't think that's true. At least I hope it isn't. Not even political parties demand such conformity.



Antony said:

Bradford EDL Demo ; http://noparmesanever.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/bradford-edl-demo-re...

 

Obviously a lot of people are upset with Tommy at the moment for what they see as some kind of defection to the Enemy.

Tommy, was on the BBC sunday morning show this morning saying pretty much the same as he's always said. He sounds like he's trying to take the conversation forward, and has joined a group that IS already giving him a better platform to speak from.

In a quick survey on the program 95% said the EDL had a valid argument against Islam. Although not scientific it is still a resounding vote of confidence.

Although every one is intitled to a view, suggesting that EDL needs a leader to focus at the moment i don't believe is true. Tommy has been crucified for being the leader. And theres not many people in the past who have been keen to take on the mantle of spokeman for the organisation because they know the trouble that will follow.

Also Casuals don't have a spokesman that gets up on the screens talking to the Media. This is not a critism, because i know as soon as one of them stood up and said they were the Leader, they would be targeted. They would be held to account for evey wrong non political correct  word written on the Casual site, they would have their lives turned upside down and inside out. Casuals work well because they keep away from the media.

The media and the authorities want a 'leader' because then they've got some one to target and smear, thus smearing all followers of that organisation, and discrediting everything they say or do.

I think EDL will run just fine for now with the RO's opperating like a commity. Wasting time Critizing Tommy wont do EDL any good, and where would it end?  The EDL is the voice for those that want to speak out and protest about the harm Islam is causing to our country. Theres no reason it can't carry on. Everyone can discuss whether Tommys move was of any use to him or any good to the CJM as we go along.

Let Tommy do what he's doing. Its way to soon to judge him on the course he's chosen. For 4 years he's given his own family a life of hell for the EDL. Why would anyone want to jump into them shoes so quick.

 

 

 

OOOOps  PAM I linked to the wrong segment

This is what you missed

Griffins grooming Speach

Now wouldnt it be a good Idea to get back on topic as we are not going to get very far debating the virtues and evils of ol nasty Nick.

Cheers

PAM you seem to have adopted the same kind of obsession with the BNP that the UAF have with the BNP. Only you've added the SWP into the obssession.

"No surprise at all. Two of them I know personally. Jews have as much right as anyone to be Nazis."

The people who have told me they voted for the BNP were working-class gay men, lesbians, and jews and other immigrants. None of them are Nazis, in fact, all are opposed to Nazism. I've no idea who you think you know, but you certainly do not know all the people I talk to.They all voted for the BNP knowing that the party is anti-semitic and homophobic. They are people who know about islam - some of them coming from countries being torn apart by islam. The rest of Britain has no idea of the horrors that are sanctified as holy by islam.  And another jew in Europe told me last week he'd rather see the Nazis in control of Europe than Muslims.  If all the people of Britain knew what islam has in store for them, and no party except the BNP was opposing it, then the BNP would be in power.

You have some kind of romanticized vision of the working class.   Bizarre really. It is what the socialists do.  You are the one maintaining that "the working class" have some kind of fixed consciousness, which would prevent them from voting for increased wages, early retirement, health care, strong borders.  All the things that the fascists, nazis, socialists hope will be recognised by the poorer sections of society as being in their interests.  Only the post-war socialists drop the border control.

It seems to me that you are adopting a position of ideological contamination. If someone voted for the BNP (regardless of their motives) they are a Nazi. Who are you to decide that someone is "wrong" for voting differently than you?  The next step is to remove the vote from such people, because they can't use it correctly.

People make decisions based on the options available to them. If they see that there is an issue that far outweighs all others in importance, and only one party supports that policy, then maybe that is how they vote.  I think the vast majority of people understand voting behaviour that way.  Only you think that it is somehow determined by class consciousness, and that "the working class" could never choose to vote that way.

I have fears for the future. Clearly you don't, since the future just repeats the past.  I got involved in EDL to stop Nazis from coming to power. And if Tommy's next move is to create a group which opposes islam, nazism, and communism, I will be utterly delighted. 

"PAM you seem to have adopted the same kind of obsession with the BNP that the UAF have with the BNP. Only you've added the SWP into the obssession." - Joe

Obsession? No. I haven't thought about the BNP for ages. I only did so because of what I read on here.

"You have some kind of romanticized vision of the working class" - Joe

I have? Simply because I don't think they will become Nazis in large numbers in the near future if they don't adopt your policies or positions? That means that if I have such a romantic view, you have the pessimistic opposite, surely.

Don't repeat the statement that I think history will repeat itself when I have responded to that. I don't think that. I have just rejected YOUR scenarios. That's not the same thing at all.

It's very unhelpful for you to accuse me of seeing the working class in the way Leftists do simply because that's what I said about you. You can see where this is going.

The 'fixed consciousness' approach is precisely what you believe. When X happens, according to your theories about the future, the working class will embrace Nazism. How more 'fixed' can you be than that? I never said that every member of the working class was some kind of rabid anti-Nazi. It's just that you, and the Left, think the opposite - they are either closet Nazis or will embrace it if Islamism continues or unemployment goes over two million. Very fixed and determinist. Very Marxist. Is this where you accuse me of being Marxist too?

"The people who have told me they voted for the BNP were working-class gay men, lesbians, and jews and other immigrants." - Joe

Sorry, I am having a problem believing that. Vote BNP fascism in order to defeat Islamic fascism. I suppose it could be said that one could be better than the other. It is still madness; if it's true.If the BNP were voted in, I would move to America. That's if they didn't put me in a Nazi Gulag first.

It doesn't change my position in the slightest. It sounds like scaremongering in order to get your policies and opinions adopted. It's a warning. Do X, or face the consequences. But what about fighting the BNP and Islamisation? Is that really more naive than voting for Nazis in order to defeat other Nazis? Is this sophisticated realpolitik or just stupidity?

My views concerning a Nazi party getting into power have NOTHING to do with "the working class".  You are the one obsessed with the working class.  I see people as the public, the population, the electorate.  I see that builders, bankers, jews, gays, socialists, capitalists would all be prone to vote for a party that opposed islam, if it was the only party opposing islam, and if they knew what their place would be in an islamic society.  No views on class consciosness come into it, no historical determinism.  We are all, all the time, involved in making decisions based on our understanding of how other people think and will respond. We do it on a small scale when we ask a stranger the time, we do it on a large scale when we make investments, plan a career, join a political party.

The starting post of this thread is from you, and refers to the BNP.  I don't know a single person who has mentioned the BNP in the context of Tommy quitting EDL. That goes across blogs, facebook, twitter, 4f.  Not one person. AFIAC the BNP are history.  And clearly most of the people I know think like that too. 

When Shiva explained his reasons for disliking Geller/Spencer, you jumped on it and started to interrogate him about these matters.  You might think you don't have an obsession with the BNP but your behaviour betrays otherwise.

Now you are actually among friends here, and I've known you for 3 years, and supported you and even tried to warn you when people were out to get you. Yet you are adopting an extremely combative attitude.

If you are actually interested in understanding my views, I suggest you go and listen to this. It's the closest thing to being a statement of my views that you would understand.  http://mises.org/media/categories/233/Theory-and-History 

My views are diametrically opposed to marxism, nazism and determinism. As I suspect everyone else on 4F knows. 

Paul Austin Murphy said:

"You have some kind of romanticized vision of the working class" - Joe

I have? Simply because I don't think they will become Nazis in large numbers in the near future if they don't adopt your policies or positions? That means that if I have such a romantic view, you have the pessimistic opposite, surely.

I'm just adding a bit of protocol info here, as a site admin.

This discussion has been closed by one of the admin team.  This happens when its thought that a discussion is consuming a lot of time, but not really getting anywhere (this guideline is in the Code of Conduct).  The closure should not be taken to imply that anybody has done anything wrong or is being castigated in any way.  Its purely a protective measure for the benefit of all members (and the anti-fascist movement in general), because we have limited resources.

As I haven't had time to read all this discussion, I can't be any more specific, but, as they say in the movies, 'let it go'.

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