The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

When Gallup included questions in its 2009 survey about muslims and their attitudes to homosexuality, 0% of muslims found homosexuality acceptable, whilst 58% of the general population found it acceptable.  In arguments with muslims, leftists and even gay people, many would retort: if they had asked this question to British christians as a group, they would have found the same intolerance as from muslims.  As the survey did not appear to do this, I was left with saying "well, Britiain is a predominantly christian country, even if most are not church-going, just like most muslims are not mosque-going".  It didn't cut much ice, even though I thought it was probably an accurate guess.

Well, I recently saw a survey directed at British christians where they were asked this question.  And the results are in some ways slightly disappointing, but in other ways extremely pleasing.  I'll return to that assessment after I post accounts of the 2009 and 2011 surveys,

Gallup 2009 survey.  (Taken from the Gay and Lesbian Legal Advice site - a mainstream politically-correct gay organisation).


Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 2:46pm by advojonathan
Gay Muslims are getting an increasing amount of media coverage recently thanks to award winning documentaries like Jihad for Love and even Showtime's new show Nurse Jackie which co-stars Haaz Sleiman as a gay Muslim nurse. So, it was not surprising when the survey, Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations, asked Muslims about their views on homosexuality-and garnered media interest.

Dalia Mogahed, Executive Director of the Gallup Centre for Muslim Studies and appointee to the White House faith-based advisory council, released the Gallup survey results on May 7 in London. Compiled from six different surveys, the study looks at Muslim attitudes in France, Germany and the United Kingdom. It is Gallup's first annual report on the state of faith relations and global attitudes among people of faith in different traditions and countries around the world.

According to the survey, the French are more accepting than any other population polled. 78% of non-Muslims and 35% of Muslims viewed homosexuality as morally acceptable. Ms. Mogahed said, "This research shows that many of the assumptions about Muslims and integration are wide of the mark." Germany came in second with 68% of non-Muslims and 19% of Muslims demonstrating acceptance towards homosexual acts.

Out of the 500 Muslims in Britain interviewed, all responded negatively but gay Muslims in the UK are becoming increasingly visible and raising awareness. Groups like Al-Fatiha and Imaan are working hard to give a voice to gay Muslims in the UK. Al- Fatiha is in the process of conducting their own survey in order to better understand the experiences and concerns of the British LGBT Muslim community. Meanwhile, Imaan sponsors an annual LGBT Muslim conference in order to reconcile Islam with sexuality and educate people that Islam is not a homophobic faith and one that all LGBT can practice.

LGBT Muslims are slowly emerging into the spotlight and changing hearts and minds. As expressed by gay UK journalist Omar Hassan in his recent commentary of the Gallup polls findings in The Advocate, there is no reason not to be optimistic: "I'm still hopeful. Together, we can build new families and communities. It won't be easy, but that shouldn't stop us from trying. After all, we owe it to each other -- we deserve it."

IPSOS/MORI Survey 2011. (Discussed on a gay news website).

UK study: 61% of Christians back equal rights for gay couples

by Stephen Gray
14 February 2012, 12:10pm

74% of Christians polled said religion should not have 'special influence' on public policy

Results of a poll released today say 61% of people in the UK who identify as Christian back fully equal rights for gay couples.

The 2011 Ipsos MORI study explored the “beliefs, knowledge and attitudes” of people who identified as Christian after the nationwide census last year.

74% of respondents said as Christians they thought religion should not have a special influence on public life.

The survey was conducted on behalf of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.

Six in ten respondents, 61%, agreed that gays should have the same rights in all aspects of their lives as straight people.

Only 29% said they disapproved of sexual relationships between gays. Nearly half said they did not actively disapprove.

Commenting on the results of the research, Richard Dawkins said: “In recent years Christian campaign groups have become increasingly vocal.

“Whether demanding special rights for Christians to be exempted from equalities legislation, strenuously opposing all attempts to review the law on assisted suicide, or campaigning against further social advances such as equal rights for gay people to marry, it is now clear that they are completely out of step, not just with the population as a whole, but also with a significant majority of Christians.

“Britain is a secular society, with secular, humane values. There is overwhelming support for these values, even among those who think of themselves as Christian. Just as importantly, there is also deep opposition to the state promoting religion in our society. When even Christians overwhelmingly oppose the intermingling of religion and state policy, it is clearly time for the government to stop ‘doing God’.”

71.6% of respondents to the national UK Census in 2001 said they were Christians. Results from 2011′s census have not yet been published.

Out of the Christians polled in 2011, 57% said state-funded schools should teach knowledge about the world’s faiths without any bias towards Christianity. They also believed the school should not try to promote belief.

The data raises questions of whether it is possible to reflect the views of the UK’s self-identified Christian population on political issues and how widely held religious beliefs on gay issues are.

Half the respondents who identified as Christian said they did not think of themselves as being religious.

Only 10% said they would draw on religious teaching to make a moral decision compared with 54% who would act according to their own “inner” moral sense.

On this data, Dawkins said: “Despite the best efforts of church leaders and politicians to convince us that religion is still an important part of our national life, these results demonstrate that it is largely irrelevant, even to those who still label themselves Christian.

“When it comes to belief, practice or even the most elementary knowledge of the Bible, it is clear that faith is a spent force in the UK, and it is time our policy-makers woke up to that reality and stopped trying to impose beliefs on society that society itself has largely rejected.

“In the past, there have often been attempts to use the Christian figure in the Census to justify basing policy on the claim that faith is important to the British people. This time, any attempt to do so will clearly be inexcusable.”

Gay Humanist charity the Pink Triangle Trust said it welcomed the findings of the poll.

George Broadhead, secretary of the Trust, told “These findings must be very welcome both to Humanist and secularists as well as LGBT people. As far as Humanists and secularists are concerned, the findings support their campaign against totally unfair and unjustifiable religious privileges such as Anglican bishops sitting in House of Lords as of right and taxpayers money being used to fund faith schools.

“As far as LGBT people are concerned, it is gratifying that there is such strong support for LGBT rights despite the hostility to these from Anglican, Catholic and other Christian Churches.”

1,136 adults who identified themselves as Christian were interviewed face-to-face in April 2011.

As you can see in their text about the 2009 survey, GLAAD try to obscure the massive gap between the general public in Britain and muslims in Britain. They also try to obscure the difference between British muslims and French and German muslims. GLAAD are actively involved in trying to cover up the muslim homophobia in Britain. The graphic they include shows the truth - Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance for homosexuality. This point about muslims having zero tolerance was a fact that even The Guardian did not try to hide.  Yet GLAAD follow on from these entirely negative findings, to go on and push the existence and "growth" of gay muslim groups.  (When Tower Hamlets free newsapaper carried a two page photo spread for LGBT history month, the photos did not contain one muslim).  None of the gay group IMAAN appear to live in Tower Hamlets (the most muslim borough of London), or if they do, they are so scared of this non-homophobic islam to have their photos taken for the local paper.

The survey of christians on the other hand shows that they had more tolerance than the general public as a whole (61% IPSOS vs. 58% Gallup).  That would seem to indicate that the Gallup poll did not distinguish (in its general population part) between christains, atheists, and muslims.  With 61% of christians backing equal rights, it would appear they are following their religion - the christianity I learned at school said "hate the sin, love the sinner", and most christians seem to be putting that into practice.  

It is the christian campaign groups (and the bishops) who are out of touch with most christians in Britain.  Whilst with muslims it seems that the homophobia expressed by Birmingham Central Mosque, Regents Park Mosque and East London mosque is entirely in keeping with the homophobia of the muslim population in general. We never see moderate muslims campaigning against islamic hate conferences held in Earls Court, Wembley, Tower Hamlets, etc. conferences where the speakers have called for gay people to be executed.

Tags: christianity, gallup, gay-rights, homophobia, islam, mori, surveys

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Replies to This Discussion

The 2009 Gallup report showing zero tolerance amongst British muslims was conducted by two muslim men, for a part of the Gallup organisation headed up by a muslim woman.  This is significant, because the liberal-left apologists for islam will say "oooh, but the survey must have been done by an islamophobe".  In fact, that's more or less the exact attitude of the gay media in Britain (incredible, I know - like lambs to the slaughter).

The British reports of this study did not mention that the team that produced it were muslims.  They conveniently left that piece of information out.

Muslims and their neo-fascist leftist allies often reject surveys, saying that 1,000 or so respondents cannot be taken as representative of 3,000,000 people.  Pointing out to them, that rejecting survey methodology means that all surveys have to be rejected, and we have nothing else to rely on but our personal impressions + gossip, seems to cut no ice.

The above two surveys of muslims and christians used sample sizes of 500 (Gallup) and 1,136 (Ipsos/Mori).  These sample sizes are often considered useless by the muslims and leftists who reject survey results which show islam as intolerant.

Several left-wing sites, and even a Tory site, have trumpeted a Demos survey, showing that muslims in Britain were more approving of gay rights than other religious groups. The survey summary table can be found in the Liberal Conspiracy link below.

This survey was done in the summer of 2011, two years after the Gallup survey (supposedly) showing zero tolerance amongst British muslims for homosexuality.  So, in the light of that survey, one would expect that a survey that clearly set out to show that multi-culturalims works (it was funded by the racist, anti-white group Runymede Trust), would do a much larger survey, or do one with better-designed, unambiguous questions, drawing from a wider cross-section of society (for example, those muslms who speak English as well as those who do not).

But the Conservative/Demos/Runnymede survey does none of these things.  The statment ("I am proud of how Britain treats gay people") whose answers the left trumpet so loudly, is so ambiguous as to be useless (a point made by commenters on both the left-wing and Tory sites).  See

Besides the uselessness of such an ambiguous question, one has to wonder about the survey size, and about the cross-section who were surveyed.  Only 47 muslims were surveyed!

When it was put to the Tory behind the report (on his own site announcing the "survey's" results), that the survey confined itself to English-speaking muslims, he does not deny it:  Considering the number of points he responds to, his failure to respond to that charge makes it clear it is correct.

What this survey shows, is that the Tories and pro-multiculturalism organisations like Runnymede are quite happy to knowingly conceal muslim homophobia.

Furthermore the Left see no problem with championing polls that re-affirm their fantasies, even when such surveys are drawn from so few people, are from an unrepresentative cross-section of muslims, and when the question is so ambiguous as to be useless.  If normal people can see immediately the uselessness of such an ambiguous question, one has to assume that organisations like Runnymede, Demos and YouGov deliberately wanted to use such an ambiguous question.

The questions are meaningless. Only straight forward questions will ever be good enough if your doing a survey, because people are either accepting of an issue, or they're not.

Most people (those of us that live in the real world outside london) don't care if someones gay or lesbian.  We don't believe gays and lesbians are destroying the world. Quite frankly there isn't enough gays and lesbians to make any impact on most of our lives.

If i sit in a pub with people the only topic, apart for money, that gets people mad is the ammount of immigrants in britian. And its not all immigrants that people moan about, dispite the large number of Poles that have come to britian most people will shrugg their shoulders and say at least they work. The reason is they mainly behave like us. Its the islamic immigration that people are fed up with,, and no one believes that theres only 3 million muslims in britian.

Anyway the point is, talk about gays and lesbians is so far down the conversation ladder, if it wasn't for all the politicians going on about gay marraige then i'm sure for most of us we'd just carry on getting along with each other regardless of our sexual preferences.

Maybe if people looked at the evidence right before their eyes. Do gays feel safe in muslim areas. Are people openly gay in muslim areas.

Where i live people are what they are. If you go in the pub you could end up talking to anyone, a west indian, an indian, a scot an irishman, a welshman, polish an african, a gay a lesbian but never a muslim. Muslims are not part of our community, why? Its not because we told them to stay away. 

  The statment ("I am proud of how Britain treats gay people")  What does that mean? Things have a long way to go, its not perfect by any means, but were on the right track. Hopefully we'll come to a point where everyone is just treated the same. 

Hows it going with the gay community in Iran or saudi arabia, or pakistan, or countless other islamic countries. Maybe if a survey was done over there we'd get a better idea of peoples attitudes.

The last time i was in London i never saw any Gay men swinging from cranes. Maybe thats because we don't allow homophobic attitudes in Britian. Although that doesn't seem to apply in Islamic dominated areas, where sharia compliant signs get put up proclaiming gay free zones.

We don't have honest discussions in Britian any more, and our surveys are just as dishonest. Its all properganda.

The head of an Islamic faith school says he will challenge an Ofsted report written by inspectors who asked nine-year-old students to define homosexuality.

Enraged parents at Olive Tree Primary School, Bury Park Road, threatened to take their children out of the independent school on Thursday after the Ofsted representatives admitted to questioning a group of nine and ten-year-old pupils on their understanding of homosexuality and gay marriage.

The schools watchdog has said that the session was designed to gauge tolerance at the school and its pupils, though parents have said that the incident “unduly sexualised” their children.

Islam forbids homosexuality and Olive Tree does not teach sexual education.

After being confronted during a planned meeting with parents on Thursday, inspectors agreed to leave the school and say they have information to complete a report– despite completing just two of the four days they were to spend there.

Headteacher Abdul Qadeer Baksh told Luton News that he would reject and challenge the report, given the short stay of inspectors.

He said: “I told them that they had more than a day and a half still to complete with plenty left to see at the school but they told me they had enough.

“The report will not be accurate, I asked them to come back another time but they will not.

“It will be half-baked and I will challenge it. I will not accept it.”

Mr Baksh revealed that more than 20 parents called him on Wednesday evening, while many more called during the meeting with inspectors on Thursday.

He said: “Children went home and told their parents about it, I didn’t know that this had happened until I started getting calls about it.

“Parents told the inspectors that it was discrimination and it encroached on their rights.

“They did not advise me that they would ask these questions and the parents were really outraged by this.”

“These are only primary school children and as it is a faith school it is not compulsory for us to teach sexual education.

“From my perspective as head, this happened during SATs exam week and it was in best interests that the children sat those exams without distractions.”

Farasat Latif, parent and chair of the school’s trust, said that the questions asked by inspectors “unduly sexualised” pupils.

He added: “We took statements from children and most of them said that they were asked to explain what the word gay means, also what they think of gay people.

“Two girls said they felt uncomfortable and were pressurised to answer the question.

“Another boy said he knew what it meant but did not want to talk about it, most said that it was quite persistent and they felt interrogated.

“Thankfully my girl was not in the group selected but parents have said that their children came home and asked them what being gay meant.

“These are children, we do not expose them to sexual things or anything of a violent nature.”

Mr Latif has collated the children’s accounts of the incident and will seek legal advice.

He said: “The whole school was up in arms.

“What gives them the right to come into the school and ride roughshod over a curriculum which does not teach sexual education?

“We wanted an apology for asking the questions but they would not give us one.

“Tolerance can be gauged by asking about gender, disability, races, any number of different things.”

An Ofsted spokeswoman told Luton News that “sufficient evidence was gathered to complete the inspection.”

She added: “The Independent School Standards, published by the Department for Education, set out that schools have a duty to teach pupils tolerance of different groups within society.

“As part of any school inspection, inspectors will ask pupils about the effectiveness of the school’s actions to prevent and tackle discriminatory and derogatory language – this includes homophobic and racist language.”

Watch the fascist left rush to the defence of headmaster Abdul Qadeer Baksh in the interests of protecting cultural purity (you know, that thing the Nazis used to talk about).


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Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

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These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
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