The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Muslim Reformers

Information

Muslim Reformers

This room is for Muslims who try to moderate Islam, i.e. reform it, resist the drift to fundamentalism, or leave it. It also includes threatened sects like the Ahmadiyyas.

Anyone curious as to why Islamic Moderates are not more evident need only look at this room for an explanation - the Moderates get murdered very quickly.

Search Site: http://4freedoms.ning.com/main/search/search?q=Zmoderate+Zapostate
Members: 10
Latest Activity: Oct 12

Key Info

The Islamic juggernaut does not take kindly to anyone who stands in its way, whether they be those trying to form a more modern or liberal view of Islam, or those who merely want to maintain a secular state (as in Turkey or Pakistan) separate from encroachment by Islam and Sharia Law .
Theologians like Rashad Khalifa, tried to reform the fundamental texts and interpretation of Islam, and paid with their lives.  Secularists like Benazir Bhutto merely tried to stop Islamism taking over the functioning secular democracy. This statist position can also be defended by a non-Muslim in an Islamic country.  Apostates reject the teaching of Islam, but generally don't want to take a political stance on the issue.  They just want to get on with their own lives without fear of persectuion.  All these people are persecuted socially and legally, threatened with violence, and frequently murdered.

Member Quotes

  • Our naive government brings gangsters from the hell holes of Afghanistan and Pakistan, like the Islamists that killed these couragous women, so the thugs can lord it over us, and make us submit to their specially uniformed tribe - Alan Lake

Discussion Forum

Taj Hargey - they will probably kill him

Started by Joe. Last reply by paul collings May 17, 2013. 1 Reply

Islam and Violence: the Double Bind

Started by Joe. Last reply by Antony May 10, 2013. 3 Replies

Muslims Against Islamists

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Kinana May 8, 2013. 3 Replies

From The Heart Of A Muslim - by Tawfik Hamid

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Alan Lake Sep 7, 2012. 17 Replies

UK: Muslim bombers target EDL Dewsbury Rally

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Kinana Jul 13, 2012. 4 Replies

Comment Wall

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Comment by Philip Smeeton on October 12, 2014 at 14:03

An example of Muslim reasoning and skill at playing the role of victim:

http://prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/929-at-tauba-of-quran-doesnt-...

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” S. 9:29 Y. Ali

This verse doesn’t ask the Muslims to do mindless slaughter as the media portrays or deceives.  It gives the Muslims the permission to fight only thosenon-Muslims who do not pay jizya – the state tax. And we all know that jizya is applicable only in an Islamic state. Neither India, nor US or Britain are Islamic states.  So to put this verse as an excuse for what happened there only shows how biased, unknowledgable and unfair the media is and it hurts us deeply.

JIZYA ISN’T A RANSOM OR A BAD THING

Coming back to the verse, now people might say isn’t it unfair that they have to pay the jizya tax? Not really. Since when is punishment for refusal to pay lawful taxes considered as terrorism? Also, the jizya tax is very cheap and affordable, and it grants the non-Muslim’s many benefits, benefits which even the Muslims don’t get! For instance, the non-Muslims who are paying jizya in an Islamic state are not obliged to take part in any battle or war, unless they themselves choose tothe Muslims do not have this choice. Muslims have to actually burn their asses out to protect both Muslims and non-Muslims living in their lands. Also if the Islamic state cannot grant protection to the non-Muslims then the non-Muslims are not obliged to pay the jizya tax, since Muslims themselves must meet expectations for the jizya tax to be implemented.  Also, Society today has no problem in paying taxes to the government, so therefore they should have no problem in paying a tax in an Islamic state either.

Comment by Philip Smeeton on October 12, 2014 at 13:55

Take a look at chapter two, the cow, and see what you can make of it.

I know there is another passage somewhere that says that Muslims are not supposed to misinterpret his words, but I can't find it.

2:78 And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

2.99 And We have certainly revealed to you verses [which are] clear proofs, and no one would deny them except the defiantly disobedient.

2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?  (He seems to be contradicting himself here).

The art of being a prophet is to make the message mystical and to give nonsense the appearance of meaning.

Comment by paul collings on October 12, 2014 at 8:34

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So, what are ISIS doing wrong?

Comment by paul collings on October 12, 2014 at 8:29

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Comment by Alan Lake on October 11, 2014 at 17:51

Thanks Philip!  I've been looking for that proving Quran quote for a while :-)

Comment by Philip Smeeton on October 11, 2014 at 9:14

As far as I can ascertain from the internet, there are two sorts of Islam reformers; the ones that want a more moderate enlightened Islam, and the reformers that want a stricter version of Islam. And the ones that want a stricter purer form of Islam far outnumber the moderates. How do we educate 1.7 billion Muslims up to a level where they are willing to understand our version of the terms liberty and equality? They have their own interpretation of these two words. Surrender to the will of Allah and Muslim brotherhood.

Mohammed specifically forbids reform:

Quran 2:85: Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts? What, then, could be the reward of those among you who do such things but ignominy in the life of this world and, on the Day of Resurrection; they will be consigned to most grievous suffering? For God is not unmindful of what you do.

Comment by Philip Smeeton on October 11, 2014 at 8:38
Comment by Philip Smeeton on August 31, 2014 at 12:06

Don't these twits know that Mohammed  cribbed from the Torah and Bible?

They really do believe that the angel of Allah dictated a completely new scripture to Mohammed? It explains why Muslims are liars, telling the truth will get you killed. Of course Mohammed told them to lie anyway. I think they just choose to be offended because it gives them licence to be sadists.

Comment by Joe on August 31, 2014 at 9:09

Turkish ex-mufti.

his main estrangement from Islam happened when he compared the Quran with other ‎religious books. ‎

‎”Then I realized how Muhammad transferred some of the writings of the Torah and Bible to ‎the Quran. I was so frustrated and angry. I could not live my childhood and youth properly ‎because of him. So many people can’t live properly because of him. So many people are ‎sufferers of his disasters."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/turkish-ex-mufti-on-muhammad-so-m...

He was murdered by muslims who killed critics of islam, just as they were when  commanded by Mohammed in the 7th century.

Comment by Kinana on July 31, 2014 at 16:26

'there is a problem with false converts to Christianity'

The Spanish Inquisition was set up partly to address that problem.  

 
 
 

Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

The two current threats to Secular Democracy (SD) of Islam and Debt arise due to fundamental vulnerabilities in its constitution. Hence the 4 Freedoms definitions give 4 corrections to that ideology.

We have little expectation of those corrections being implemented, because SD rests on an even more fundamental fallacy, that:
The 'open marketplace' of ideas driven by rational self interest will lead to ideological well being - in the same way that Adam Smith's free market of prices leads to economic well being.

But ideological faction is not comparable with economic grouping, because the rational self interest of ideological actors performs differently to that of economic actors. Consequently, the open society of SD, will succumb gradually to any strong, unified gang, of which, Islam is one example.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks; nor to read them; nor even to record them, so 4F gives only a sample view of how far it has advanced and by what methods. We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and will force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow Muslims the possibility of escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These freedoms protect against four vulnerabilities in standard definitions of democracy.
1. Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of free speech and democracy
2. Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed -except one advocating the end of free speech and democracy
3. Freedom from Religious Intrusion
Religion & culture operate freely in the private sphere, but are regulated by law in the public sphere
4. Freedom from Debt
The electorate is not allowed to live off debt and dump it on the next generation

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