The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Fightback by Theology


Fightback by Theology

For discussion of 4 Freedoms issues in theology - Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.

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Location: Kinana
Members: 52
Latest Activity: Feb 8

Key Info

  • A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. To fear Islam is not irrational, for the very nature of Islam is irrational - Danny Jeffrey
  • It seems that Western Christians can scarcely contain their indifference to the persecution of the Coptic Christians - Heather Gilbert

Discussion Forum

Ahmadiyya Muslims

Started by Kinana. Last reply by Kinana Nov 27, 2016. 2 Replies

Quran 9.5: qualified or not?

Started by Alan Lake. Last reply by Kinana Jun 12, 2016. 24 Replies

The Sunni Theory of Government

Started by Joe. Last reply by Alan Lake Feb 8, 2016. 5 Replies

Colour coding the Koran

Started by ECAW. Last reply by Alan Lake Jul 2, 2015. 20 Replies

Did Lee Rigby’s killers betray Islam?

Started by Kinana. Last reply by Kinana May 19, 2015. 2 Replies

Steps to Allah - Steps to Hell

Started by Kinana Apr 18, 2015. 0 Replies

The Myth of Moderate Islam

Started by Joe. Last reply by paul collings Apr 11, 2015. 4 Replies

Islam as a Counter-Reformation

Started by Joe. Last reply by Joe Apr 5, 2015. 7 Replies

Maajid Nawaz on Islam vs Islamism?

Started by Kinana. Last reply by Philip Smeeton Mar 31, 2015. 9 Replies

Comment Wall

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Comment by Alan Lake on July 10, 2012 at 7:26
Comment by Kinana on June 23, 2012 at 13:57

'I have reviewed and criticized Irshad Manji's work before. Although she never says so explicitly in her book, I get the impression that Manji largely agrees with the mantra that "Islam is whatever Muslims make of it." I don't share this view. Why do those who behead Buddhist teachers in Thailand, burn churches in Nigeria, persecute Hindus in Pakistan or blow bombs in the London subway always "misunderstand" Islamic texts? Why don't they feel this urge to kill people after reading about, say, Winnie the Pooh?'

Fjordman August 21, 2008

Comment by Kinana on April 26, 2012 at 11:39

thanks to Dajjal for this info

Comment by Dajjal 

Change happens! Web site changes break old links and new resources are discovered.  USC-MSA, now called CMJE, made changes which broke old links.  The URLGenerater utility has been updated and a new alternative site added. went down and stayed down.  The UrlGenerator now links to Islam-Universe instead.  You can't find it with Google, use Bing to search for it or go to and open the Resources for Bloggers page to find it.  

Sunan Ibn Maja & Sunan an-Nisa'i are early compilations of Islamic law.  They are five volume sets, the Jihad info is in Vol. 4.

Ibn Sa'd's collection is another old one with some interesting stuff. This site belongs to a Dutch Muslim. Google Translate handles it quite well and most of the ahadith are in English.

Comment by Joe on March 29, 2012 at 15:27

How not to conduct a debate.  

This is a debate between Eric Alan Bell (the leftist film-maker who finally dropped his islamophilic blinkers), and Nadir Ahmed.  It is pathetic the way Nadir Ahmed was able to fire off a string of lies, and then push Robert Spencer's buttons to unsettle him.  Robert, get your ego out of the way.  In fact, Spencer shouldn't even have been allowed to speak on the show.  I'm sure that Bell was good enough to argue against Ahmed.

I would think very carefully about selecting Spencer for a debate after this.  I guess all the constant repetition that he is running away from debates with people might just rile him.  Maybe Nadir wouldn't have adopted that stance if Bell hadn't been so insulting from the get-go, and if Glazov hadn't stacked the deck by having Spencer there too.

I gave up after 20 mins when Spencer's ego made an appearance.  If there's more that's worth listening to after, let me know :)

Comment by Kinana on January 16, 2012 at 18:36

Dear all

I share a letter below I wrote re an article about working with Muslims on the issue of preventing abortions via the UN  --  ‘U. N. bureaucrats, hungered for a right to abortion that would require nations to allow for the unrestricted killing of their unborn babies.’

Found here:

My letter:

My take on this is

  1. it is good to prevent abortions
  2. it is good to work with others to achieve this goal
  3. it is also necessary to keep your eyes wide open and know who you are working with!

Islam teaches that every child born is a Muslim and is led astray by non-Muslim parents and society.  Also the more Muslims in the population the sooner Sharia law will be implemented and imposed on Non-Muslims. 

Here are just two quotes of many that I could share:

“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
– Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 – 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN

Mullah Krekar, a refugee from northern Iraq and living in Norway said in 2006: “Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes.” Another translation says: 'We will take over Europe because we Muslims multiply like mosquitoes.'

So yes, work with Muslims to save unborn children but know that some Muslims do this in order to have enough ‘troops’ to bring about a Muslim dominated society.  Islam teaches that non-Muslims are only good as a source of labour and wealth, in other words, as servants/slaves to Muslims.

Comment by Kinana on January 9, 2012 at 18:23

an excellent source for all things re Islamic scriptures

with an excellent search engine too.

Comment by Kinana on July 29, 2011 at 14:21
Comment by Kinana on July 29, 2011 at 9:32
The more influence radical Muslims have over the political process and society the more non-Muslims, esp Christians, will leave.  They are under attack as never before.
Comment by Alan Lake on July 29, 2011 at 2:11
BAGHDAD, IRAQ – When members of the National Evangelical Baptist Church in Baghdad celebrated Christmas at the end of 2007, they were also closing their fourth year of existence in Iraq. While many news stories today focus on the dissolution of Iraq’s 2000-year old Christian communities, today there are few articles examining the activities of evangelicals.A recent report again denominated the many dangers facing Iraq’s Christians, death, kidnapping, extortion, and torture among them. However, the nearly complete absence of mention of Christians other than Iraq’s traditional Chaldean, Assyrian, and Syriac sects is telling. Although it is clear to any observer that these communities are the largest and thus those most at risk, it is also clear that there continues to be underlying conflict between Iraq’s traditional Christians and newcomers, evangelical or otherwise.One report gave a 100% breakdown of Iraq’s Christians that included only the three main groups in its numbers: “Of the remaining 800,000 Christians, 65 percent are Chaldeans, 25 percent Syriacs, and 10 percent Assyrians.”Statements such as this, and the vast disparities in total population of Iraqi Christians quoted by the many reports and articles about the dangers they face further muddy a complicated situation. The estimates of Christians remaining in Iraq since the American invasion range from 800,000 to less than 300,000. Even more dramatic, numbers of Christians living in Iraq prior to 2003 range from 800,000 to 1.35 million or slightly more.Although there have been many articles in 2008 examining the ongoing struggles of Iraq’s Christian minority, they focus almost entirely on the largest portions of the minority, Assyrians and Chaldeans, as well as examining almost exclusively their future in Iraq’s north and the potential for a protected autonomous area for Iraq’s historic Christians. It appears that Evangelicals and other newcomers have not been investigated in depth since early in the war, between 2003 and 2005. This hole in reporting on Iraq’s Christians is made even more dramatic given the veracity, if infrequence, of reporting on the repression of Iraq’s larger Christian communities.Alive in Baghdad’s depiction of Iraqi Evangelical Baptists celebrating Christmas mass and discussing their hopes and difficulties does not aim to provide a wide depiction of Christian life in Baghdad or Iraq, but will hopefully provide further insight into one of Iraq’s newest Christian minorities.

Comment by Indoeuropean on July 27, 2011 at 7:01
Fatah -> "there is a Difference between Islam and Islamism": [Sarcarm] in fact, there is a Difference between Muhammad and Muhammad (...) [/Sarcasm]

Members (52)


Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom of Movement
The government can import new voters - except where that changes the political demographics (i.e. electoral fraud by means of immigration)
4. SP Freedom from Over-spending
People should not be charged for government systems which they reject, and which give them no benefit. For example, the government cannot pass a debt burden across generations (25 years).
An additional Freedom from Religion is be deducible by equal application of law: "Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight - except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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