The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Reply by Gastou 12 hours ago
What do you think about Turkey as a member of EU? I say NO because there are enough muslims in Europe


Reply by multikultur 10 hours ago
Definitely a No. I already mentioned the different ways of islamisation in France and Germany: in France you got masses of muslims from the former French colonies in the maghreb, in Germany we have millions of immigrants from Turkey, who came during the times of the "Wirtschaftswunder". These two groups are completely different to handle - while the Turkish are much more "moderate" and "western" they are also more dangerous because they know exactly how to use a democratic society for their purposes.

They tried to invade this continent for centuries and finally they succeeded because somebody let the city gates wide open for a conquering army. Turkey is a booming economy with its very own islamisation (or arabisation) on the rise, once granted membership to the EU it would be the union's most powerful member with the highest population! Ten million more immigrants from Turkey would be in Germany overnight, so to say. EU membership for Turkey equals Europe's death.


Reply by Alan1 on 2 September 2008 at 12:44pm
And I think there's 4 other points of prime importance here.

1. Uncaring
There is a cold-heartedness amongst us 'Western/Christian Democrats' which borders on treachery. We let our brothers in Anatolia be over-run, slaughtered, raped and taken as slaves, and now we don't even do them the justice of remembering it. We must never cease to remember and remind Turkey that it is an Islamic conquest by the sword. We must shut up these dhimmi twits that keep blabbering on "Remember the Crusades". We must remember the injustices us kafir have received. If you debate with Muslims you will be surprised how many do not know their bloodthirsty history of conquest, we must shut them up too, by never letting this memory die.

2. Historical Legitimacy
Why do we accept the legitimacy of this state? Would Muslims accept it if 'Christians' retook Egypt? Or Zoroastrians re-took Iran? They don't even accept the legitimacy of the re-taking of Spain!

3. Current Legitimacy
In Turkey, it is a criminal offence to even mention the Armenian massacre, never mind try get a state apology. What about the Christian missionaries recently tortured to death, disemboweled & emasculated alive in the 21st century no less! See this Library doc.
What about the Christian poplulation of Constantinople/Istanbul, from 2 million in 1920 down to 2,500 now, as described here? Did they all go on holiday? Did they forget to have children? We need to jab these facts into our opponents faces.

4. Offence not Defence
We must go from the defence to the offence. Islam feels no shame (for its history). Why? Germans feel shame for Nazi Germany, Americans even feel shame for Abu Gharaib, but Muslims, no. Why should they? The people they abuse are sub-human (in their classification), with lower Human Rights (its even in their Muslim Declaration of Human Rights!).

Turkey should be ashamed to even ask for membership. The request should be greeted with derision - 'You cannot be serious'. If we can only refresh people's memories of the past and present, we can move this to a position of shame.

I think this is starting to happen with for example, Gastou's Action SITA. If enough of the foul strories are common knowledge, they will even be wary of putting in an application to build a mosque.


Reply by Derius on 17 September 2008 at 12:40am
Alan,

Well said, I agree with you.

However, with regards to your statement here:

"What about the Christian poplulation of Constantinople/Istanbul, from 2 million in 1920 down to 2,500 now, as described here?"

be warned that there is an effective argument that some apologists employ to counter that. They will point out that Ataturk took control in 1919, and it is under him and his secular reforms that the oppression you mention took place, and that before 1919, when Turkey was a Caliphate, there was less oppression. They will then argue that it was only when Islam was constrained by secular reforms that the lot of Christians worsened.

Nonsense I know, as the persecution of Christians was despite Secularism and not because of it, but I have seen one person get caught out by this counter argument previously. Just so you are prepared!

My favourite argument against those who want Turkey to join the EU is to point out that Mein Kampf got into the top 10 book bestsellers in Turkey a few years ago. Most hand wringing Liberals run a mile at that point!


Reply by Alan1 on 17 September 2008 at 5:58am
Yes, well the Muslims are experts at creating arguments full of balderdash, so thanks for the warning.

(1) since Turkey was a purely Christian country before Islam conquered it, you have to ask what happened to all of them before 1920, so they got down to 2 million. Its like all the zoroastrians in Persia... I guess they all went on holiday and decided not to come back? this is a typical sneaky argument, ignoring all the millions that went before 1920, because they assume the country should be Islamic anyway, and all those dead and oppressed Christians don't matter, because they are just sub-human dhimmis.
(2) the presence of Ataturk is not relevant over 425 years of perpetual decline. Ataturk did not rescind the Islamic prohibitions on church maintenance, etc. anyway. Nor did we see a sudden attempt to revive the poor oppressed Christian population after he went.
Nor has it anything to do with this disgusting story of torture, with cutting off and genitalia and chopping them in front of the victim, here.
We must all stop being delicately polite about these 425 years of violence and abuse, continuing to this day. Turkey should be even ashamed to ask to join civilised society.

A friends neice toured Turkey recently and was puzzled by the fact that Jesus's face was vandalised in most places. I guess she was also puzzled by the minarets on converted churches. The reason why Islam is so dangerous is that it is persistent and moves very slowly - so slowly that everyone forgets. The whole current generation has no idea how scary (on a national level) it was until the beginning of the 20th century. Everyone has forgotten that Turkey should be a Christian country.

Nice point about the Mein Kamfp as well.


Reply by Remember Kinana on 6 September 2008 at 12:30am
three thoughts:
1. every german person i speak to says 'no', but they also say that the German government/leaders etc will allow it. The people feel powerless to do anything about it. i hope that feeling of powerlessness changes in time. it seems that the people of Austria and Germany are the people most likely to push enough so that the political leadership can veto the admission of Turkey.

2. i have heard that should Turkey succeed in entry to the EU then changes in their laws would be required. i.e. re human rights and freedom of speech etc. At the moment Turkey fails on these two points and a host of other HR matters. The ruling party are walking the tight rope of keeping the growing Islamic tide under wraps just long enough to appease the European leadership to give them a green light for entry. and when that happens will the rest of Europe be ready? probably not, but we here at nemosini are working on it, i know.

3. because of the turkish economy the european businesses are looking at short-term gain, so we cannot expect them to offer any assistance to forstall this drive for admission.

Tags: EU, Should, Turkey, allowed

Views: 52

Replies to This Discussion

Reply by Alan1 on November 29, 2008 at 6:51am

Reply by Gastou on 2 September 2008 at 12:05pm
NO to Turkey in the EU before recognizing armenian genocide
NO to Turkey in the EU before leaving cyprus island
But the main argument : when Turkey enter EU the european autorities will demand turkish army=
last laicity defender to stay far away from politics in the name of democracy and therefore islamists will win and Turkey will become an "islamic republic"


Reply by cimm93 on 5 September 2008 at 1:51pm
When (Greek leader) Venizelos dined at Downing Street, Lloyd George proposed the toast: “May the Turk be turned out of Europe and sent to . . . where he came from.” Lord Curzon agreed: “For more than five centuries, the presence of the Turk in Europe has been a source of distraction, intrigue, and corruption . . . Let not this occasion be missed of purging the earth of one of its most pestilent roots of evil.”

(Quoted in 'Paradise Lost: the Destruction of Smyrna' by Giles Milton - who also wrote the superb 'White Gold' about the centuries-long Islamic trade in white slaves.)


Reply by Mary on 17 September 2008 at 7:08am
This is a cross-post from the Islamophobia thread.


Tuesday, September 16, 2008
Turkish Prime Minister: "Islamophobia" a "crime against humanity"

And he wants it outlawed, pronto, which will mean that those who dare to expose the Islamic roots of the global jihad and Islamic supremacism will pay hefty fines and spend long stretches in the slammer. Of course, it can't happen here. Can it?

"Enmity with Islam ‘crime against humanity,’" by Thomas Seibert for The National (UAE), September 17 (thanks to Jack):

ISTANBUL // In a sign of his simmering anger about what he sees as baseless accusations against Islam in the West, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s prime minister, has called on the international community to declare the enmity against Islam a “crime against humanity”.

Addressing Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, his Spanish counterpart, and about 2,500 other guests in Istanbul at a celebratory iftar meal on Monday, Mr Erdogan said: “No culture, no civilisation should belittle the other, despise the other or see the other as an enemy.” [...]

In the Alliance of Civilisations, Mr Erdogan has emerged as a leading representative of the Islamic countries, said Semih Idiz, a foreign policy columnist with the daily Milliyet. As a politician with roots in political Islam and leader of a party that has many pious Muslims among its voters, Mr Erdogan is very sensitive to what he sees as western prejudices towards Muslims, Mr Idiz said.

“Islamic countries are watching closely what he does,” Mr Idiz said about Mr Erdogan’s role in the Alliance of Civilisations. “He is a sort of spokesman, representing the Islamic world in the platform.”

But at the same time Mr Erdogan had to take into account that he himself had to take “brave steps”, Mr Idiz said. After the murders of the Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink and of three Christians in the central Anatolian town of Malatya last year, the Erdogan government was criticised for not being outspoken enough in its condemnation of the killings.

In his speech at the iftar on Monday, Mr Erdogan stressed the need for a dialogue without prejudices.

“The principle mission of the Alliance of Civilisations is an effort to understand each other correctly,” he said. The fear of Islam that has spread in the West, a development he called a “paranoia”, makes it harder to reach that aim, he said.

“The fear called Islamophobia is a pathological state of mind, as the name says,” Mr Erdogan said in his speech, according to reports in Turkish newspapers and television stations. “We expect members of other civilisations to declare Islamophobia a crime against humanity, especially while we say that anti-Semitism is a crime against humanity.”

Mr Erdogan has criticised the West for harbouring “Islamophobia” before, saying that Muslims felt “under siege”. But this time, the prime minister went further, accusing the West of trying to define values of a global civilisation all by itself.

“We think that civilisation is global, and that civilisation cannot be interpreted like an ideology that belongs to the West,” he said. After a first international forum held in Madrid in January this year, the Alliance of Civilisations will hold its second forum in Istanbul in April. Mr Idiz said the platform had become a vehicle to defuse tensions between the West and the Islamic world.

“We saw that after the cartoon crisis,” he said, referring to the anger in the Islamic world after the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed by a Danish newspaper in 2005. At a meeting in Doha in Feb 2006, members of the alliance discussed ways to calm the waters after the crisis....
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

RSS

Page Monitor

Just fill in the box below on any 4F page to be notified when it changes.

Privacy & Unsubscribe respected

Muslim Terrorism Count

Thousands of Deadly Islamic Terror Attacks Since 9/11

Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
2. SP Freedom of Election
Any party is allowed - except one advocating the end of these freedoms
3. SP Freedom from Voter Importation
Immigration is allowed - except where that changes the political demography (this is electoral fraud)
4. SP Freedom from Debt
The Central Bank is allowed to create debt - except where that debt burden can pass across a generation (25 years).

An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

  • Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

© 2022   Created by Netcon.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service