The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Power is not uni-directional, but forms a more complex structure than a straight line.  Femen make use of their assets and the tittilation of the media to draw attention to issues affecting women.  Roman feminists thanked Femen for drawing attention to sexism in Italy.  At first when I heard of Femen, I thought "they need to take their fight to islam, but they probaby won't".  The very next interview I heard with them, they said that that was near the top of their list, but that it is going to be very dangerous.

If you don't watch Russia Today, then you will have missed them.  And if they can get me jumping out of my seat and shouting "go, girls", then I think the rest of you will appreciate their efforts too.

I love this image on their home page: http://femen.org/

Here are images from many of their other confrontations. 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=femen&hl=en&client=opera&a...

Our history in the west could have been so different in the past 30 years if we'd had these kinds of feminists, instead of Germaine Greer and Maryam Namazie.  Our feminists were in fact the direct ideological descendants of the suffragettes, who were only interested in the vote for middle class (property-owning women) rather than democracy and universal suffrage (and a host of other issues affecting women). 

 

Tags: Articles, Collected, Femen, feminism, zwomen

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Replies to This Discussion

YES ! we need more women like this ! historically, most of the feminist movement has been anti woman's liberation, with censorship of erotica and campaigns against women working in the sex industry etc, irrespective of the fact that this can be a viable career choice for some women when made of their own free will.

At the same time of course, they have never lifted a finger to protect girls at risk from female genital mutilation, honour killings etc

Dearest Joe, sorry but I do not agree. Why do you want/ed more women like these? Appearently a man might wish/dream something about them, which is not exactely them to be respected such as men do.

 

Fist Feminist mouvement was in 1791, just after French Revolution, and issuing a Declaration of the Rights of the female Citizen (a parallel and a reply to the revolutionary first Declaration of the Rights of the Citizen, in Europe).

 

As for Mariam Namazie, I just agree about the fact that she might bee too much politicized (Communism), if not a bit racist (against Christians, in other words, Westerners, undependantly of the fact that the word Christians itself means not a Race).

 

A good and beautiful Feminist of today, in my opinion, might be Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which wear decent clothes, undependantly of the fact that she is a quite pretty girl (now or very soon a mother), and undependantly of the fact that she originally comes from Somalia, which is not in the West,

 

but this is only a plus value, since one like her really know which kind of abuses women endure, and she know the difference between living in Africa or in the USA or in Europe, and she does work to support human Rigths of women,

 

and I think not she is very interested in Politics itself (various Waves), she rather points out the importance of be able to free critically think and to teach not what to think (such as Religions and political Parties do), but to teach how to think (free and critically).

 

The women in the pictures you forwarded, honestly speaking, seem to me not suitable enough to promote and spread women's Dignity and Humanism (women are human beings, not show girls - the picture by Egyptian Alyia AlMeghrany was only symbolic, contextualized in very peculiar Country and within a peculiar political period: it was a first, a single message for a specific purpose.

 

I see no ground for Europeans or Westerners or Russians to use nudity and sort of pornographic pictures to promote a message: Europe, the West and Russia ALREADY are full of nudity, even too much (there is a whole business around pornographic Nudity in these world's areas, which even drive to human Traffiking and sexual Exploitation).

 

Sorry, therefore: I dare to disagree with you and with Antony.

 

Good and beautiful days and nights.

 

What can I say.  Beauty and pornography are in the eye of the beholder.  I do not find them to be pornography (literally: the writings of a whore).  The sight of two men boxing is far more obscene in my eyes.  Do you find the male chest to be pornographic, or just the female?  If only the latter, then that is sexist.

I think my point about power and context maybe was not well-enough expressed.  A group of around 10 women are able to manipulate the media in order to raise important political issues.  I would much rather feminists follow the example of Femen and use their power for grand political causes rather than just to get some lucre from baring their chests in a newspaper or magazine.

Perhaps you are in agreement with the salafists who have covered the statues of mermaids in Alexandria, because the statues too bare their chests.

The main point is that these women have an understanding of power relationships and the media that enables them to get the political views raised.  If they had stood with a few placards they would achieve nothing (well, maybe they'd get a sense of smug satisfaction and moral worth).

I do admire Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  But Ms. Ali was in a peculiar situation that meant that she got political power.  For everyone like her who gets a voice, there are thousands who don't.  And the price Ms. Ali pays for that voice is that she has lived under threat of assassination for a decade or more.  That seems to be a high price to pay to get a voice.

Indoeuropean said:

The women in the pictures you forwarded, honestly speaking, seem to me not suitable enough to promote and spread women's Dignity and Humanism (women are human beings, not show girls - the picture by Egyptian Alyia AlMeghrany was only symbolic, contextualized in very peculiar Country and within a peculiar political period: it was a first, a single message for a specific purpose.

I see no ground for Europeans or Westerners or Russians to use nudity and sort of pornographic pictures to promote a message: Europe, the West and Russia ALREADY are full of nudity, even too much (there is a whole business around pornographic Nudity in these world's areas, which even drive to human Traffiking and sexual Exploitation).

 I love this image:

 

 

And in this video, at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFfpyLYDZ04&feature=related

you see the trouble they've gone to to prepare for a demo - making their own pseudo-riot-cop accessories.  

I'm impressed.  

I agree with you Joe, they've made an intelligent and effective use of the media to get an important message out, and they are working in areas that other feminists (like the pathetic Germaine Greer) have just abandoned, out of fear or laziness or both.

Dearest Indo,

I think we've almost gone thru a double u-turn on the issue of partial nudity now.  As you say:

"Europe, the West and Russia ALREADY are full of nudity, even too much (there is a whole business around pornographic Nudity"

there is so much total nudity and pornography freely available now that merely showing breasts has, I think, become de-sexualised compared to what it was before. If people want to see sexual images, they can see far more than that for nothing on the internet.  We aren't living in the 19th century anymore.  

Hence, those symbols have become available for adding pizzaz to political messaging, which they have done very well here, and for a good cause.

Would you prefer that we'd all never heard of the sexual exploitation of Ukraine?  Because thats the alternative.  (Until now, I didn't know about it being that bad).


Have a lovely evening, Indo.

Alan


Indoeuropean said:

Dearest Joe, sorry but I do not agree. Why do you want/ed more women like these? Appearently a man might wish/dream something about them, which is not exactely them to be respected such as men do. ... 

Joe Said

At first when I heard of Femen, I thought "they need to take their fight to islam, but they probaby won't".  The very next interview I heard with them, they said that that was near the top of their list, but that it is going to be very dangerous.

http://russianforum.org/2011/06/femen-protest-at-saudi-embassy-for-...

There's some interesting comments on the Saudi protest.  A load of Saudi men speak up in favour of protecting their "queens", but oddly enough, no Saudi women.  Funny that eh?  I guess the "queens" are too busy arranging their jewellery, or something.

 The lies they tell themselves to justify the 2nd class status of women.  Reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Infidel, when her mother relocates the family to Saudi Arabia, there is no trace of the women being treated like queens.  I guess the way to ascertain if these Saudi men really find the life of a Saudi woman so wonderful, is to find out if they areprepared to be dictated to in how they dress, what they can do, when they can leave the house, and whether or not they'd be happy for a kuffar's word to have twice the value of theirs in a court of law.

Alan Lake said:

There's some interesting comments on the Saudi protest.  A load of Saudi men speak up in favour of protecting their "queens", but oddly enough, no Saudi women.  Funny that eh?  I guess the "queens" are too busy arranging their jewellery, or something.

Dear Joe, it is obviously not the chest, the problem: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01519/ukraine-underwear... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4447592076_e3b191118f.jpg http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxaaapGEGV1qaexg6o1_500.jpg and about the meaning of pornography I think that I belong to those who quite well know the ethimology of it (from ancient Greece).

 

By the way,  am a woman myself, and I find pretty weird to be depicted as a Salafist:  hope you satisfy some kind of need of yours by telling me such a weird thing. Otherwise it is really a waste of time only.

 

Good and beautiful afternoon.

Dear Alan, I hope you will get sincerely interested in the History of Feminism, then you will understand why I say that I can't stand the use of Pornography to allegedly support it. It has NOTHING to do with it.

 

That you like these women promoting what they do in such a way, this is your (masculine?) business: I see no dignity in this, and I do repeat and reaffirm the problems tied to the esposure to pornographic images,

 

which not (this is for Joe) is not a matter of "beholder", at least not only.

 

We already stated several times that the Sixties brought some problem related to Sexuality and to the exposure of it, (Nudity itself means nothing, while the malicious showing off of so to call them persona attributes means exactely what it is meant to be: Malice), among which institutionalized Pedophilia plays a major role (which saddens me at most).

 

I am maybe not really aware of the fact that males, like you and/or Joe, like and appreciate, and listen (?) to women, only if they are very pretty and very undercovered, as well as malicious:

 

in that case I must accept Feminism to become a sort of show business, where man can enjoy the sight of boobs, butts and vaginas, open legs, blond hair in the wind, smiling malicious faces, and eventually listen (?) to the message.

 

Still here are the first steps of Feminism, but I feel this sounds very uninteresting to you (two): very saddening indeed, since this makes me aware of the fact that human Rights of women, and Dignity, it is not on the top of your (masculine) agenda.

 

Anyway.

 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femminismo#Le_origini_del_femminismo:_... and http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femminismo#Il_periodo_del_riflusso and so on.

 

I think that the women shown by Joe are similar and opposite of those going around hidden in jilbab, and "proud of it": they are certainly not that females that will promote and/or improve human Rights of women/females and their Dignity.

 

Thank you.

 

Good and beautiful after noon.

I'm sorry but the salafist comment was not meant as an insult.  The salafists have covered up the mermaid statues in Alexandria because of them baring their chest.  http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/511759

In your initial objection you did not say what you objected to with regard to the women of Femen.  I pointed out the specific photo that I really like.  It is a photo that has a woman baring her breasts, but with her fists in a boxing position. 

Again, I'm at a loss to understand what it is you object to in the 3 photos you provided links to.

If you think that Femen are producing pornography, then I presume you t find pornography in many modern films, and even in the work of Michaelangelo.  

I don't understand your comment about women and salafism.  There are female salafists.  Obviously since you are a good member of 4F, you cannot be a salafist. 

I'm a man, and I don't see what my gender or your gender has to do with this. 

Even if we disagreed with the politics of Femen, what they are doing in terms of media manipulation is interesting.  It doesn't mean I'm suggesting you start demonstrating in your underwear.  I have no plans to do that.  But I respenct and admire Femen for what they are doing.

I wish you a good and beautiful afternoon too.  More of us should pass on a little kindness in our posts. 


Indoeuropean said:

Dear Joe, it is obviously not the chest, the problem: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01519/ukraine-underwear... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4447592076_e3b191118f.jpg http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxaaapGEGV1qaexg6o1_500.jpg and about the meaning of pornography I think that I belong to those who quite well know the ethimology of it (from ancient Greece).

 

By the way,  am a woman myself, and I find pretty weird to be depicted as a Salafist:  hope you satisfy some kind of need of yours by telling me such a weird thing. Otherwise it is really a waste of time only.

 

Good and beautiful afternoon.

Ukraine and Moldova are the poorest and worst (mis)treated countries/populations of the (east) European world.

 

 It is pretty well known. Here a video about sexual exploitation, general figures: http://www.somaly.org/video/2 .

 

If you look for modern Slavery in Internet, even most popular Wikipedia will tell you extensively about the problem.

 

Willingly to find information in other languages as well, which I recommend (unfortunately I can't speak Ukranian), there is plenty of them.

 

The Mafia of Pornography (that's why Ukranian women get sexually exploited, as well as for purposes merely - sigh - tied to forced Prostitution) is an enormous business,

 

and I think that there are more common Organization which try and increase awareness about the enormous problem.

 

Though I agree: how many listen to them? Maybe because they do not show boobs, butts and open vaginas?

 

When I think about sexual esploitation of children then, pornographic images make me even angrier. And Femen dot org doesn't help against this.


Good and beautiful days and nights to EVERYONE.

Alan Lake said:

Dearest Indo,

I think we've almost gone thru a double u-turn on the issue of partial nudity now.  As you say:

"Europe, the West and Russia ALREADY are full of nudity, even too much (there is a whole business around pornographic Nudity"

there is so much total nudity and pornography freely available now that merely showing breasts has, I think, become de-sexualised compared to what it was before. If people want to see sexual images, they can see far more than that for nothing on the internet.  We aren't living in the 19th century anymore.  

Hence, those symbols have become available for adding pizzaz to political messaging, which they have done very well here, and for a good cause.

Would you prefer that we'd all never heard of the sexual exploitation of Ukraine?  Because thats the alternative.  (Until now, I didn't know about it being that bad).

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Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

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Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

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