The 4 Freedoms Library

It takes a nation to protect the nation

Comment from Philip

I think that there is only one possible reality, as evolution sorts out everything that is not functional. The new theories about the formation of solar-systems is very interesting, they point out that we had assumed that our solar-system was typical, but it seems there is lots of variation, with some that have gas-giants close to their suns.

I also reason that time is eternal and space infinite, and that numerous universes have evolved and decayed, maybe. Alternatively space and time might be finite. I can understand that there can never be an end but how could there ever have been a beginning, where what is (the reality and the physical universe we inhabit) came into being from nothing. From nothing existing to everything existing. How can there never have been a beginning and everything have always existed? The explanation is that everything has always existed in some form or another, or is it?

Questions beg questions but the questions are interesting to ponder.

In infinite space there are possibly endless numbers of universes that have existed, do exist or will exist, with an infinity of time to evolve in.  Explaining everything with-"God did it" is feeble. The only answer is I don't know, but there are things i know, things that can be known with absolute certainty that are fact.

Regarding politics two people will disagree about things, seven billion people even more so. I am in a way content with being what I am, but I can never resist having a go at the next guy.

Tags: God, The, Universe, and

Views: 157

Replies to This Discussion

Comment from Paul


Can you get believers to admit that God is only a theory not a reality?

Now i could be wrong, but, If someone could come up with a Theory. of God, People might be able to say he was more likely to exist because there's a theory.

Or put another way, 'God could theoretically exist'. After all, the Higgs Boson was just a theory. Almost everyone was convinced it must exist, but no one could prove it.  (Until recently) 

So if God became a theory, maybe the same could apply. 

God though is about faith. No real proof is required. Although almost any thing that happens or exists could be considered poof of Gods existence if you have faith. Belief in God is not evidenced based.

There is evidence that other universes exist, cosmologists from caltech using evidence from the planck telescope map of cosmic microwave background and pictures of light from the night sky think they have found strange light that suggests a collision with another Universe.

Also certain galactic clusters suggest a gravitational pull that could only come from external forces.

There are so many possibilities who's to say one of those doesn't include a god? or a super being, or a big bloke with a beard, .. Count nothing out until you have evidence to the contrary. The same as i count nothing in without observable evidence.  

Observing Islam i find no evidence of peace love or tolerance. I can observe all the opposite, and can produce the evidence,  but without an audience that will believe what i say, i am just a crank with a load of Blasphemous words screaming that the earth is round.

Comment from Philip

Scientific theory has to be based on factual measurable evidence, it is speculation about what the facts mean, religious speculation is not based on factual evidence.

Of course you can have all sorts of theories, including scientific ones, about all sorts of things without facts or with few facts that may or may not have been misinterpreted.

Religious theory is pure speculation because it does not require factual evidence. It requires blind faith, people in reality cannot walk on water.

The day that there is factual verifiable evidence that God exists then it will cease to be a theory, it will be fact- God exists. Until then it is pure speculation and any theory about the existence of God is doubtful. Scientific speculation tends to built on theory that has more or less been conformed by measurable fact. There is no measurable verifiable fact as yet to build any theory of God on.

Things that exist are not evidence that God exist, they are only evidence that they themselves exist. A tree is often used as evidence that there must be a god with the logic that men cannot create trees. But a tree is only evidence that trees exist nothing more. And we have a reasonable theory now called evolution that speculates, based on fossil and scientific observation, that everything evolves and that the tree unwittingly made itself without help from a god or man.

There is no evidence that other universes exist, there is only pure scientific speculation about this. They try to gather factual information and interpret it, in contrast to priests scientists usually do not claim to own solid truth only the most likely theory in the circumstances. scientific truth is open to change, religion is not, they deal in impossible eternal truths that are not to be questioned.

Anyone that studies the history of religion will see that religions evolve just like everything else. Religious people are just to blinded by their faith to see this. I see that Christians are adapting to Islam, their religion is evolving. The thing about religious texts is that they can be interpreted in different ways according to need.

What scientists are observing out in the universe may not be evidence of other universes or dimensions, in my unscientific opinion, this data only demonstrates that our universe is infinitely larger than we know and I think it all exists in the one and only dimension that we exist in, normal 3D reality. I also think, note I do not say believe, that God is created in Man's image and religion is purely a product of the human brains surplus capacity allowing us to imagine impossible things.

All of the actual factual evidence is there to prove that Islam is basically evil. The so-called islamists are very fond of spouting this truth. And currently Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists are not blowing us up and shooting us in public places in our own countries, because their religion does not tell them to do so. Islam does tell Muslims to murder and terrorize and to blow us up and cut our throats. That is the difference.

A definition is in order.  'Universe' used to mean "everything that exists everywhere".  

But facing the harsh reality that we can only  know what is within our light horizon, the universe is now considered to be the light width of where we live, which is the size of the CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background), which (adjusted) comes out at 92B light years.  We can't know anything about what exists outside of our 92B light years across universe and anything outside cannot have affected us.  So on that basis, we define our universe to be everything within that light horizon.  Once you say that, you have to invent the term 'Multiverse' to refer to the original meaning, i.e. "everything that exists everywhere".

At the moment, people are using either of those 2 definitions, depending on their background in cosmology.  But the confusion is in the language, not the physics.

Comment from Philip

It is what we don't know and may never know that inspires awe. Religion is a lazy way of explaining anything. It does not encourage thought. As you define there is only one universe and that includes the bits too far away to see; that we speculate about. We can measure gravity but we cannot yet explain what it is, other than that it is a force. Likewise we can measure the passing of time but all that we can say about it is that it exists, and that our existence is dependent on time and space existing. (and the existence of gravity).

Logically? space is infinite and time is eternal, but I may be wrong. They could both be finite, theoretically.

What is really interesting and fascinating is what science and technology (thought and art) discovers and produces, and speculating about it all. Religion smothers all such pursuits as there the only appropriate occupation and source of joy is the love and study of God and His creation. According to my primitive mind things just exist and are as they are and we try to make sense of them, no mystery but at the same time a huge mystery.

Comment from Paul

Alan as i'm sure you know, we can only theorise the size of the universe. We use the planck diagram of the CMBR and theorise that with the universe expanding in all directions would after 13.8billion years  be royghly 92billion years across.  We can't observe it to be sure.and some scientists say the Universe is bigger at 156billion light years because the distance the light travelled at the early part of the universe got expanded. 

Some think we may be like a hall of mirrors because space is warped in some way.  If you can think of a creditable theory I'm sure some one will listen. 

 WE  know that the Universe  is roughly 14billion light years in any direction, because we can see that.

light from further afield hasn't had time to get here, but were fairly certain the early galaxies we see in the CMBR have formed into larger cluster and are still there.  

95% of the Universe is unknown to us hence dark energy, dark matter.  Dark energy at 68% dark energy at 27% the rest at 5%

We have just measured a gravity wave, which if the scientific community can do more often could be used to prove expansion, and could in theory help shed light (no pun) on dark energy ect.  

Unseen gravitational forces may or may not explain anything, much the same as an unseen Universe before ours may or may not exist or be a matter for serious study. 

Before i could evoke such a theory it would have to fall inside my light horizon, methinks.

Comment from Philip

The big-bang-theory assumes that the universe is finite. I beg to disagree and claim that the universe must be infinite.

Empty space must be infinite, or is there no such thing as an empty space in which concrete things exist?

Either there is nothing at all outside of a finite universe or else if the universe is expanding it is expanding out into a void/empty space in which other expanding or contracting"universes exist at vast distances from each other.

I still think that the universe is infinite.

Something cannot come from nothing? so everything has always been here? there can never have been a beginning and there can never be an end to everything? the universe we occupy now has evolved from something that went before and will evolve into something else.

I imagine part-universes spread out through the infinity of the total universe. As the universe would have to be infinite in size then it would be difficult to define it as total because it is an infinity and can never be measured. The concept of a finite universe is just as difficult to concieve as an infinite universe.

If there really is a threshold to our universe is there something or nothing beyond this threshold. I do understand the concept of a finite universe everything is contained within it and there is no outside.

Comment from Paul

Phillip, if you think Islam is tough then you should go to some science gigs. 

Scientists who have worked a life time on an idea can be laughed into exile in an instant. And if you like we could spend a life time arguing about how long an instant is. 

The Big Bang Theory is just that. A theory. First put forward by a Priest no less, called Georges lemitre i think its spelt. Any way hubbles observations help the idea gain traction but it is still a theory. A good one especially since the discovery of the CMBR, which is another story all of its own.  But there are those that will still argue about it, until its proved. 

To argue for or against infinity could take you a while. An infinity maybe. 

Scientists have tried to answer the question.  They’ve searched for evidence that features on one side of the sky are connected to features on the other side of the sky.  And so far, there’s no evidence they’re connected. so we're no a big doughnut. 

 This means 13.8 billion light-years in all directions, the Universe doesn’t repeat.

Light has been travelling towards us for 13.8 billion years and that’s just when the light left those regions. The expansion of the Universe has carried them photons from 47.5 billion light years away. Based on this, our Universe is 93 billion light-years across. as Alan said.

That’s an “at least” figure. It could be 100 billion light-years, or further.. We don’t know. We might never know. It could be infinite. Or it might be as near as damn it. And thats before we get into quantum Physics 

Maybe I'll ask Muhammad. He's probably been there on a flying horse. 

'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.'

Bah Humbug!!!

Those were word spoken by men granting absolute power to the god they had created. There is no alpha or omega, no beginning and no end, there was no first nor will there a last.

Before I begin allow me to express my delight at finding such views as expressed in this discussion among those who I have long thought to be no more than a group of long winded, greasy Islamophobes....All joking aside, I have spent a lifetime seeking any such as you who could look to the universe and question EVERYTHING about it.

It has been said that religion begins where knowledge ends and I have no doubts about the veracity of that statement, noting that scientists are in many ways just as dogmatic in their pursuits as are the witch doctors that promote ignorance and superstition to people who lack the wisdom and courage to question the nonsense put before them. Scientists, still seeking a higher power have resorted to many explanations, with the current most popular theory being the Big Bang. Even they, with their supposedly superior logic, still seek Alpha and Omega via the Big Bang, and the latest rubbish is that the universe is eventually going to die of old age, out of hydrogen with which to make new stars and expanded so far into an endless universe that no galaxy will be visible to another.

I am convinced that the universe, and/or multiverse has always and will always be here. So very many looking for an answer to the origin of the universe tell us that it had to be created by God, never questioning where did God come from. Scientists, still on the same quest present us with the Big Bang theory, eliminating God from the equation, but relying on creation nonetheless.

Time is regarded to be a dimension and as such can be circular. Ever see the movie 'Somewhere in Time'? I have watched it several time for two reasons: One, I am a hopeless romantic, and Two, I think that Jane Seymour was one of the most beautiful women of the 20th century.

Recall at the very beginning when Jane Seymour, as a wrinkled little old lady, approached the young playwright and placed a watch in his hand as she squeezed it, saying "Come back to me.". She then turned and left a very confused Richard standing there with the watch in hand. Later Richard encountered a photo of Elise McKenna, an actress of 1912 and manages to travel back in time to meet her. After a few days she is holding that watch when he finds a modern day penny in his pocket that pulls him back to our time leaving the watch with her.

Where did the watch come from? He got it from her and she in turn got it from him. Fantasy! Fiction you might say but I contend that all of our religious indoctrination and the Big Bang are equally fictitious. Time has always been a part of a universe or will somehow double back on itself, eliminating the need for a creation or a creator.

I firmly believe that the universe is self perpetuating and infinite. Just take a look at any spiral galaxy and witness the jets of gas that are produced as the black hole at every galaxy's center consumes its aging and dying stars and converts them to sub atomic particles that are jetted into space, forming hydrogen and other elemental gases as those jets cool and begin the voyage to the outer part of the galaxy where all new stars are born.

I have been too long away from my study of cosmology. Obama has really made a mess of everything that was once part of my world. Well, sadly I cannot stop him, and there are yet questions to I must seek answers before I leave this world again.

I was delighted to find the intellectual stimulation at 4F in my pursuit of answers about Islam. I am just as delighted, if not more so, to find others with the intellectual capacity to ask the same questions that I do about this magnificent beautiful universe.

Alan, you should consider creating (There's that word again) a room entitled Philosophers Corner. It may not draw a lot of members but from what I have seen thus far, it could get lively.

Ha ha, yes Danny, a Philosopher's corner would be good!  We'll just have to hang out in here for the time being though. Its going to get even more interesting over the next decade as well.  Once the James Webb telescope is launched, our understanding will leap forward again, just as it did with the Hubble telescope.

Reading about the trouble that NASA is in with managing its projects nowadays, I wonder if Obama might think of re-assigning their 'Muslim outreach' goal to someone else?  That could help them.  Well, he could re-assign Muslim Outreach to the BLM movement, there's clearly a marriage made in heaven there.


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Mission Overview

Most Western societies are based on Secular Democracy, which itself is based on the concept that the open marketplace of ideas leads to the optimum government. Whilst that model has been very successful, it has defects. The 4 Freedoms address 4 of the principal vulnerabilities, and gives corrections to them. 

At the moment, one of the main actors exploiting these defects, is Islam, so this site pays particular attention to that threat.

Islam, operating at the micro and macro levels, is unstoppable by individuals, hence: "It takes a nation to protect the nation". There is not enough time to fight all its attacks, nor to read them nor even to record them. So the members of 4F try to curate a representative subset of these events.

We need to capture this information before it is removed.  The site already contains sufficient information to cover most issues, but our members add further updates when possible.

We hope that free nations will wake up to stop the threat, and force the separation of (Islamic) Church and State. This will also allow moderate Muslims to escape from their totalitarian political system.

The 4 Freedoms

These 4 freedoms are designed to close 4 vulnerabilities in Secular Democracy, by making them SP or Self-Protecting (see Hobbes's first law of nature). But Democracy also requires - in addition to the standard divisions of Executive, Legislature & Judiciary - a fourth body, Protector of the Open Society (POS), to monitor all its vulnerabilities (see also Popper). 
1. SP Freedom of Speech
Any speech is allowed - except that advocating the end of these freedoms
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An additional Freedom from Religion is deducible if the law is applied equally to everyone:

  • Religious and cultural activities are exempt from legal oversight except where they intrude into the public sphere (Res Publica)"

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