The real Islam

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe on December 15, 2014 at 16:05

Chapter 5 of the koran (in chronological order) was the final chapter, but two.

Chapter 9 was the penultimate chapter.

The actual final chapter says almost nothing.  

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an

Since people like the Deputy PM are happy to read out parts of Chapter 5 of the koran and remove the words which command muslims to kill, I doubt there is any traction to be gained by pointing out that Mohammed ended his life commanding first apartheid and then genocide against unbelievers.  

The elite can be assumed to fall into 3 categories in their attitude towards islam:

1. ignorant of what the koran says and ignorant of the life of Mohammed
2. fearful  of what the koran says and fearful that muslims will emulate the life of Mohammed
3. knowingly islamising the west

Given Clegg's ability to read and distort chapter 5, at a press conference where he was surrounded by knowledgeable and "respected" muslims who must have known he was lying, then 1) cannot be the answer.  

3) seems far more likely than 2).  No-one was holding Clegg's family hostage, and making him lie about what the koran says.

Permalink Reply by Alan Lake on December 16, 2014 at 6:16

Excellent (and useful) comment Joe, so I've featured this discussion to make it easier to find.

Permalink Reply by ECAW on December 16, 2014 at 16:40

Joe - I agree there's little hope of penetrating the elite's refusal to take seriously what is actually in the Koran, though I would put no upper limit on their ignorance as long as we call it willful ignorance.

My main concern though is the importance or otherwise of 5:3 for those of us who do take it seriously. It seems to me, because of its placing, a stonger and clearer indication of the relative importance of early or late suras than can be derived from the verse of abrogation. And yet I've never seen it used that way as opposed to the principle of abrogation which we see used everywhere.

Any comments on that?

Permalink Reply by Antony on December 16, 2014 at 17:29

ECAW - genuine stupidity or wilful ignorance on the part of our Dear Leaders ? - sometimes their policy of allowing an obviously hostile group of people into the country reminds me of the importation of the Plantationers into Northern Ireland, so that the ruling class could play one section of the working class against another section of the working class.

Permalink Reply by Joe on December 17, 2014 at 11:03

It seems you are looking for a foundation on which to prove to people that a core value of islam is murder and subjugation.  We have contemporary history to show this (in UK, Pakistan, Israel, Thailand, etc.), we have the history of 1300 years to show this, we have Ibn Ishaq, we have manuals of sharia law which show this, we have the refusal of Quilliam (etc) to even denounce the hadiths of Dawud which advocate child murder.  And we have chapters 5 and 9 of the koran which show this.  None of it matters to those who are the gatekeepers of what can be said in the voice of society.

Clegg can still mangle koran 5:32 to make it say the opposite of what it says.  No journalist exposed his trickery.  No academic exposed his trickery.  No "human rights" group exposed his trickery.  No opposing politician exposed him.  

I am banned from leaving comments on places like The Guardian, The Independent, The Daily Mail.  Our enemies have even got sufficient resources to get my refutations deleted at places where I am not (yet) banned, like The Telegraph.  I have long ago given up entering into debate at more minor leftist sites, because my comments were routinely deleted.  Where do you think you have access to some channel of communication where you can mount any kind of successful argument?

I am not sure I see any further benefit in arguing that islam is announced as perfect in 5.3.  This in itself relies not so much on abrogation, as it relies on knowing (and proving) the chronological order of the koran.  Without proving this chronological order, people are going to think that it can only be meant as metaphorical, since there's 109 more chapters which come after the perfection of the first 5 chapters.  Pointing out in debate 100s of times, that 5 and 9 are among the last 3 chapters of the koran has never brought any admission from my opponents that this is remotely significant.

When schools, universities, newspapers, trade unions, political parties, army leaders, police leaders, non-muslim religious leaders are all lying to the public about islam, what hope is there that any dissident voice is going to get through?  And if your argument is anything more than sloganeering, you will not get any traction.

The majority of people in Britain already object to islam and think that we face a violent future because of it.  But they are not going to do anything until things are really, really bad.  And then they will not be entering into debate, but will be killing and torturing and demanding political leaders who will commit genocide.

Bill Warner has been exposing the truth about islam for many years.  And choosing many effective methods (from his chronological koran, to his simplified koran, to his comparison of hate speech in different core islamic texts, to his video mapping the 500 muslim attacks which preceded the 9 crusades).  Yet Bill Warner has recently conceded that the CJM is only at the Samizdat stage (comparing our fight with the fight against the Soviet Union) - he said that we are 30 years away from reaching a Gorbachev stage (assuming such is even possible with muslims as compared with communists).  Upon realising this, it is clear that Bill Warner underwent an epiphany: we are too late, we don't have 30 years, because by then muslims will be the majority in France, Germany, Holland, Sweden, UK.  Bill went from educational/debating principles to advising people on how to organise "dirty" street protests.  And he is doing this from an American perspective, telling Americans how to start protesting physically rather than debating: I'm not sure he sees that Europeans have any hope of salvation even with things like the EDL or Geert Wilders.

It is 30 years since Bat Yeor published The Dhimmi.  Her last book was on the coming of the universal Caliphate.  Do you think she believes we are in a situation where the global Caliphate can be stopped?

Either you like academic debate, or you are operating with the opinion that given the right refutation, we can get somewhere.  Most of us are of the opinion that we are in a post-dialogue world.

ECAW said:

Joe - I agree there's little hope of penetrating the elite's refusal to take seriously what is actually in the Koran, though I would put no upper limit on their ignorance as long as we call it willful ignorance.

My main concern though is the importance or otherwise of 5:3 for those of us who do take it seriously. It seems to me, because of its placing, a stonger and clearer indication of the relative importance of early or late suras than can be derived from the verse of abrogation. And yet I've never seen it used that way as opposed to the principle of abrogation which we see used everywhere.

Any comments on that?

Permalink Reply by ECAW on December 17, 2014 at 16:22

 Joe - Thanks for your reply. I understand that there is plenty of other evidence to persuade a rational person of Islam's ill intent and that the opposition to that view is either irrational or malign. I do not think at this stage facts stand much of a chance in the debate but I want to have my arguments in order if and when the tide turns. Sadly, I think it will take more atrocities on the streets of Britain for that to happen. Perhaps it never will. The reaction in Australia from politicians, police, the public and of course a daughter of the dead woman is hardly encouraging. I believe it will take atrocities on the scale of Peshawar or Nairobi, and several of them before a majority wake up and connect it all to the root cause.

But 5:3, in it's placing, seems very striking to me and I'm surprised more isn't made of it. Put it this way, if I was a convert it would mean more to me than 2:106 and probably incline me to the rougher end of Islam. I was just hoping someone could confirm my impression or else say "You've overestimated it because….."

To respond to your other points:

I agree about Clegg. His duplicity (or willful ignorance, I'm not sure which but I agree about the deceitful responses to it) was one of the first things that caught my eye when I started to look into all this. I drag up his contemptible phrase "a great salvation religion" at every opportunity.

I have two Guardian accounts under pre-moderation and three not yet, but I have become tired of the Punch and Judy atmosphere in their comments columns. It seems that everyone has their views firmly fixed. I don't recall ever seeing a post saying "Gee, you've got a point there, I'll have to think about that".

"Where do you think you have access to some channel of communication where you can mount any kind of successful argument?"

Well, I don't really. I set up a blog and went "advertising" for trade, hoping to engage neutrals and antis in debate but soon found out that we talk mostly to each other in the CJM.

I am surprised you find the order of the Koran a problem when talking about it. I had thought that anyone who knew the slightest thing about it knew that it was out of order, or could easily be put right about it.

Do "the majority of people in Britain already object to islam and think that we face a violent future because of it."? That wasn't my impression but then I am an expat and only get these things second hand. I do know people who say things like "They want to take us over" and "It's already too late" but who keep it under their hats for obvious reasons. If you're right then a sea change could be coming but I agree, it isn't going to be pretty whichever way it falls out.

No, I don't like academic debate for its own sake. I do what little I can but without much optimism. Fortunately I'm of an age where the worst of it is unlikely to affect me directly but my grandkids aren't, and it saddens me immensely to see a great civilization apparently subsiding before a cruel and backward one. We are like a householder who has taken in a tiger cub mistaking it for a kitten and feels obliged to keep up the pretence even as his own children start disappearing.

Cheers.

Permalink Reply by Joe on December 18, 2014 at 0:08

Your experience of The Guardian matches the experience of many of us.  And most people who engage in "debate" don't seem to be swayed by logic or new information.  That's why the Leftist sock-puppets even get my refutations (usually laden with a couple of choice URLs) deleted.  They cannot deal with the arguments, and they don't want the information/refutation left lying around for others (less ideologically committed) to stumble upon.  We win the debates when it comes to facts and logic.  But that being ineffective is why we have mostly given up trying to mount any resistance in that arena (or what is left of our access to that arena).  The position we reached here collectively within a couple of years took people like Bill Warner almost 15 years to reach.  Others (such as Sam Harris) have not yet realised that we are in a post-dialogue world.

Most people in Britain are unaware that the koran is (effectively but crudely) scrambled/encrypted.  Throughout history, most non-muslims have not even been allowed to touch the koran. Even now, in muslim countries us dirty kafirs are not allowed to touch the koran unless we have converted to islam - I should have woken up when my muslim boyfriend would not allow me to touch his koran, saying I was "unclean".  Muslims want their victims to know as little as possible about what the evil book has in store for them.  Most muslims I have debated have denied that the koran is not printed in any kind of sensible order.  But we even face a battle with those among us who are supposedly on our side, yet who deny that the koran says muslims can eat non-halal meat.

I doubt that most converts to islam actually read the koran. I have met converts who struggled with their new religion not because of what the koran says, but because of the hatred they heard their new "brothers and sisters" voicing towards the non-muslims around them, and from being told they must abandon their biological family if they cannot convert them to islam.

As for what the majority of Brits think: 

Look at their recent polling – indicative data from a recent online YouGov survey.

Just 23% of people said that Islam was NOT a threat to Western civilisation.

http://wallscometumblingdown.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/two-years-on-...

Despite the lies of the schools, the media, the politicians, the churches -- only a small minority of Brits don't think islam is a threat to our civilisation.  Yet try to find the views of that majority represented in any of the media, and you won't.  This is what we've been calling "the ideological chasm" between the majority of the Demos and the elite.  And it's to be found across the western world.  This Chasm will increase and will lead to instability and unpredictability.  From my experience of talking to UKIP candidates, they seem to think that UKIP is doing well because it is UKIP; they seem oblivious to the fact that they are beneficiaries of the Chasm.  

We are like a householder who has taken in a tiger cub mistaking it for a kitten and feels obliged to keep up the pretence even as his own children start disappearing.

Ably articulated by Sultan Knish - http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/a-nigerian-prince-called-...

Online debate is probably now one of the least important areas for us to focus our energy.  Since the majority of the Demos are already on-message with regard to the threat from islam (even if they don't know chapter and verse of the koran or the history of islam), what we should be doing is looking round for points of leverage, where we can invest our time and skills and knowledge to try to move the day of reckoning forwards in time.  I have directed my energies into several different strategies to combat the elite and their islamisation.  The key IMO is to see where we think the problems will be in 5 or 10 years, and to start working on that now, having our bridges and defences ready in anticipation.

For example, one thing I've been advocating is that someone writes The Tommy Robinson story (in conjunction with TR, obviously). It is a no-brainer that there will come a time in the next 5 to 10 years when the public will want to know what happened to TR. There will come a time when he will be regarded as the Nelson Mandela or the MLK or the Malcolm X of the ordinary man in Britain.  And someone researching, writing  and publishing his story will actually help to bring about that moment.

There are other strategems that were thought might fall on deaf ears for years, but actually seemed to transform certain aspects of the conflict very rapidly, far more rapidly than any of us expected.  Each of us needs to be considering what needs to be in place, ready for when the Demos wants that information, and do what we can to anticipate that demand and provide such information in the next 6 to 12 months.  A bit like a footballer getting his retaliation in first.

ECAW said:

 Joe - Thanks for your reply. I understand that there is plenty of other evidence to persuade a rational person of Islam's ill intent and that the opposition to that view is either irrational or malign. I do not think at this stage facts stand much of a chance in the debate but I want to have my arguments in order if and when the tide turns. Sadly, I think it will take more atrocities on the streets of Britain for that to happen. Perhaps it never will. The reaction in Australia from politicians, police, the public and of course a daughter of the dead woman is hardly encouraging. I believe it will take atrocities on the scale of Peshawar or Nairobi, and several of them before a majority wake up and connect it all to the root cause.

But 5:3, in it's placing, seems very striking to me and I'm surprised more isn't made of it. Put it this way, if I was a convert it would mean more to me than 2:106 and probably incline me to the rougher end of Islam. I was just hoping someone could confirm my impression or else say "You've overestimated it because….."

To respond to your other points:

I agree about Clegg. His duplicity (or willful ignorance, I'm not sure which but I agree about the deceitful responses to it) was one of the first things that caught my eye when I started to look into all this. I drag up his contemptible phrase "a great salvation religion" at every opportunity.

I have two Guardian accounts under pre-moderation and three not yet, but I have become tired of the Punch and Judy atmosphere in their comments columns. It seems that everyone has their views firmly fixed. I don't recall ever seeing a post saying "Gee, you've got a point there, I'll have to think about that".

"Where do you think you have access to some channel of communication where you can mount any kind of successful argument?"

Well, I don't really. I set up a blog and went "advertising" for trade, hoping to engage neutrals and antis in debate but soon found out that we talk mostly to each other in the CJM.

I am surprised you find the order of the Koran a problem when talking about it. I had thought that anyone who knew the slightest thing about it knew that it was out of order, or could easily be put right about it.

Do "the majority of people in Britain already object to islam and think that we face a violent future because of it."? That wasn't my impression but then I am an expat and only get these things second hand. I do know people who say things like "They want to take us over" and "It's already too late" but who keep it under their hats for obvious reasons. If you're right then a sea change could be coming but I agree, it isn't going to be pretty whichever way it falls out.

No, I don't like academic debate for its own sake. I do what little I can but without much optimism. Fortunately I'm of an age where the worst of it is unlikely to affect me directly but my grandkids aren't, and it saddens me immensely to see a great civilization apparently subsiding before a cruel and backward one. We are like a householder who has taken in a tiger cub mistaking it for a kitten and feels obliged to keep up the pretence even as his own children start disappearing.

Cheers.